RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: sarah e on Thursday 22 September 05 07:05 BST (UK)
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I spotted this on the news website and wondered if we could be of help, possibly not but Roots chatters have pulled it off before.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4268066.stm
with regards, Sarah.
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What a good idea Sarah!
For a start, tried searching for the death of an Ethel Mary (with or without ROBINSON) born about 1920, without finding one. (Used Ancestry)
Is she still alive?
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Hi
I tried the CWGC site to see if any of these men were listed, and came up with the following. Not sure how much use it is, but it does throw up a wider variety of names, and something may ring a bell with somone. It may help to track down some brothers or sisters and their descendants.
John Robinson's middle name was Victor. Son of Hubert Hedley Robinson, O.B.E., Merchant Navy, Master S.S. Empire Success (London) (Died on active service, 19th February, 1945), and of C. Helen Robinson, of Wimborne Minster, Dorset; husband of Ethel M. Robinson.
Of the three other men listed, there is no record on CWGC for L E Moss. The other two are:
Kenneth Wakefield
Age 20 when killed in August 1942
Son of Albert J. and Alice J. Wakefield, of Bedford.
Peter Siegfried Sharman
Age 20 when killed in August 1942
Son of George Owen Sharman and Gabriel Sharman, of Buxton, Derbyshire.
As no details are given of the wives of these men, is it safe to assume that they were unmarried, or just that there wasn't room for more detail in the article?
I've done a quick hunt on Genes Reunited to see if any of these are entered, but nobody seems to be looking for them.
Will try another couple of ideas asap, but my boss is in the office now :(
Silvilocks
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His father's record also:
http://www.cwgc.org/cwgcinternet/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=2691196
Hubert Hedley Robinson was b. Redruth in Dec 1886 quarter (although in the London Gazette for 19 Mar 1940 he is listed as Herbert Hedley Robinson). His parents were Hubert Treweeke Robinson and Alice Burns S. Curnow (from 1891 census/freebmd). I couldn't find any brothers or sisters for him.
LE Moss I think is Leonard Edward Moss, of NZ! Same date of death - 28/8/1942, Sergeant in the NZ Air Force-
http://www.cwgc.org/cwgcinternet/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=1077309
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There's a Leonard Edward Moss on Genes Reunited born 1914 which would be right. No place of birth given though. I let my membership lapse, so I can't can't contact the member. Is anyone else able to?
Silvilocks
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I am a member and will contact "Judith"
Watermusic
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Found a John Robinson - Kent 1917 there too, so messaged them as well.
WM
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What a good idea Sarah!
For a start, tried searching for the death of an Ethel Mary (with or without ROBINSON) born about 1920, without finding one. (Used Ancestry)
Is she still alive?
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
Ancestry seems to be throwing a hissy fit at present, and entering a year on some searches means it keeps saying no matches are found. Searching deaths 1984-2002 for Ethel Mary Robinson without any further info gives 21 results, three of which look like possibles from the date of birth given. Searching just for "Ethel Mary" gives 5885 results, so I'm NOT going to play. Hopefully Ancestry will sort this out pretty quickly.
Silvilocks
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Found this site on google.
http://members.tripod.com/chrisuphill/mainr1.htm
ROBINSON~Alice~9/8/1945~89~1856~W/O Robert Treweeke; M/O Healey Hubert~Centenary~
ROBINSON~Healey Hubert~19/2/1945~59~1886~S/O Robert Treweeke & Alice~Centenary~
ROBINSON~Robert Treweeke~16/3/1941~84~1857~H/O Alice; F/O Healey Hubert~Centenary~
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I've just spoken to Sue Raftree, the RAF spokeswoman for this to see if there was any further information available. She's confirmed that both Kenenth Wakefield and Peter Sharman were unmarried. The only information is their place of birth as given in the article, and they were both born in 1922. They don't have any further information on Leonard Moss, except his wife's name which is on the CWGC site.
I've told Sue about Rootschat, and explained what we're doing, so hopefully she'll be dropping by to have a look. If Watermusic gets replies to the GR messages, I've told Sue we'll pass any info on.
Silvilocks
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I have e-mailed the bbc through the website to ask where they got the info from and if they could forward any info on to us.
Heres hoping..
Sarah
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I've posted this link on the Armed Forces board for our resident experts!
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I found the following death records. there are the following Ethel Mary Robinson, some of the dates are way out but one of them may be his wife, if she didn't remarry of course.
Ethel Mary Robinson Mar 1984 19 Sep 1917 Darlington Durham
Ethel Mary Robinson Dec 1984 29 Jun 1894 Warwick and Leamington Warwickshire
Ethel Mary Robinson Oct 1985 31 Dec 1904 Chester and Ellesmere Port Cheshire
Ethel Mary Robinson Aug 1987 28 Jul 1914 Chichester West Sussex
Ethel Mary Robinson Aug 1987 10 Oct 1907 Ealing Greater London
Ethel Mary Robinson May 1988 1917 Scunthorpe and Barton-upon-Humber Humberside
Ethel Mary Robinson Jun 1988 10 Jun 1900 Bradford West Yorkshire
Ethel Mary Robinson Jan 1988 22 Aug 1912 Yeovil Somerset
Ethel Mary Robinson May 1989 26 May 1908 Birkenhead Merseyside
Ethel Mary Robinson Sep 1989 24 May 1907 Gainsborough Lincolnshire
Ethel Mary Robinson Jun 1989 28 May 1897 East Dereham Norfolk
Ethel Mary Robinson Feb 1989 4 May 1926 Aylesbury Vale Buckinghamshire
Ethel Mary Robinson Jun 1989 3 Nov 1896 Waveney Suffolk
Ethel Mary Robinson May 1991 29 Nov 1900 Ewecross North Yorkshire
Ethel Mary Robinson Sep 1991 26 Feb 1913 Derby Derbyshire
Ethel Mary Robinson Nov 1996 21 Sep 1920 Stoke on Trent Staffordshire
Mary Ethel Robinson Apr 1984 1 Aug 1901 Halifax West Yorkshire
Mary Ethel Robinson Jan 1984 6 Nov 1913 Kings Lynn Norfolk
Mary Ethel Robinson Oct 1985 24 Dec 1902 Whitehaven Cumbria
Mary Ethel Robinson Mar 1993 1 Jul 1902 Poole Dorset
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It said in the news article that Sgt Robinson was bn in Weston Super Mare, in Somerset. So maybe this is her
Ethel Mary Robinson Jan 1988 22 Aug 1912 Yeovil Somerset
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Poor Hubert Hedley seems to get his name mispelt all over the place!
I don't know how much time/money Sue Raftree/the RAF have to pursue this, but I'd say wills would be the way forward for the Robinsons at least - Hubert Hedley Robinson, OBE, I would say would be very likely to have had a will, which should list if there were any siblings of J.V. Robinson.
On the others:
The Times, Saturday, Mar 03, 1928; pg. 4; Issue 44832; col B and The Times, Wednesday, Mar 28, 1928; pg. 5; Issue 44853; col A record the divorce proceedings of George Owen Sharman and his wife Grace Evelyn Sharman, nee Rogers. They had a son and two daughters, but George was said to have committed adultery with a Elena Josephina Carolina Gabrielson ('Gabriel', the listed mother of Peter Siegfried?), and in return he accused Grace of adultery with Mr Lawrence H. Bradshaw, artist, and Mr Austin Osmond Square.
A decree nisi was granted, with the care of the two youngest children given to the father (they had been living in the same house as George and Elena for some time.)
Is this the same man? I can only find one George Owen Sharman birth on freebmd, 1871-1910, George Owen Sharman b. 1883, m. 1909 to Grace. If this is him, then I guess Peter had at least three half-siblings, and maybe some full siblings.
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There is a lot more info about the operation they were on here:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=41471&goto=nextnewest
Very sad.
[on a lighter note - I like the way this forum honours its long -serving members with the title "smart-arse" ;D ]
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ho ho where does it say smart arse then, i cant see it
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Under the member's names - e.g. Eddie
The article says that the NZ airman's age was 28, not 22 as per CWGC.
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this could be Kenneth Wakefields father in 1901??
Emma J Wakefield abt 1872 Clapham, Bedfordshire, Wife
Joseph Wakefield abt 1872 Derbyshire, Head
Rose A Wakefield abt 1899 Clapham, Bedfordshire, Daughter
Albert J Wakefield abt 1896 Clapham, Bedfordshire, Son
RG13/3206
Folio 66
Page 34
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George Owen Sharman
if we're looking at teh right one (born 1883) he was born in Keymer Sussex according to 1901
he probably attended Varndeans Boys School in Brighton and Hove district
http://www.oldvarndeanians.org.uk/vboys/yearlists/y1895.html
in the class of 1906 were two other Sharman's - Cyril L and William N - I think this this is too early for them to be the half siblings of Peter tho
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Have found someone who is related to Sharmans from Keymer area of Sussex so I have contacted him to see if there is a connection or he can shed light on the search
there is a Sharman genealogy page here:
http://www.sharman.info/
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British Telecom list an E.M. ROBINSON in Weston super Mare...
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does anyone read German (I think!!)
http://www.mindef.nl/Images/LRDK9_tcm6-42152.pdf
takes a while to load and you're looking for page 7
or maybe as its a .nl it's Dutch - I can only do french and thats if its about monkeys sitting in trees
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Thought I'd first check the facts in the BBC article before seeing where they would lead.
Births September Quarter 1919
ROBINSON, , Axbridge, 5c 588. Mother's maiden name: Gerard
- He had a middle initial - very useful with such a common surname.
Marriages
No marriages of a J ROBINSON (with or without middle initial V) to HALL in either 1940, 1941 or 1942 (The BBC article said he married Ethel M Hall 4 years after joing up in 1937). However......
Mariages Ref: **** Quarter 1941
ROBINSON, J V,
HALES,
Off to look for births for ROBINSON with mother's maiden name HALES in 1941 - 1943.
Al
p.s. I've just edited this post as some of the information is likely to be about someone still alive and to post in full would be an invasion of their privacy.
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Good idea, Alcrighton, by the way where are you getting the information from?
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where are you getting the information from?
From the BMD indexes. Available at:
www.1837online.com (Pay per view)
www.familyrelatives.org (Pay per view with fully indexed searching 1868 - 1920)
www.thegenealogist.co.uk (Pay per view or all inclusive annual subscription)
There are probably others.
Al
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With regard to Peter Siegfried Sharman - I have been researching a Sharman line from Derbyshire but have no link to a Peter Siegfried Sharman.
I do know another person who has links to Derbyshire Sharmans - I will email her and see if she has a connection.
Bev
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Births, December Quarter 1941
ROBINSON, ********
Mother's maiden name: HALES
Ref: *******
Although I have a couple of doubts:
- It's bit close to the marriage date of June Quarter 1941 but we have to remember that this was war time.
- I think the place of birth is in Shropshire but the BBC article has them in Kent
Even so I think this is worth passing on to the RAF. I'm sure they'd be happy to stump up the 7 quid to get the birth certificate to prove whether or not this is the births a child of John V ROBINSON & Ethel M HALES.
Will continue to look through the birth indexes for 1942 & 1943 to see if there are any other candidates.
Al
ps. Have just edited this post as some of the inofrmation is likely to refer to someone still alaive and as such would be an invasion of their privacy. The full details have been sent to the original poster to be passed on to the RAF
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Well done Al - keep going!
Remember that forces personnel and their families are/ were often shunted about as per operational requirements, so you may still be right.
A ;)
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Alcrighton you are a star, I am absolutely amazed, I have been floundering around all day and have found nothing. May be she found out she was pregnant and they got married on the hop.
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Births, December Quarter 1941
ROBINSON, ******
Mother's maiden name: HALES
Ref: **************
Although I have a couple of doubts:
- It's bit close to the marriage date of June Quarter 1941 but we have to remember that this was war time.
- I think the Whitchurch in question is the one in Shropshire but the BBC article has them in Kent
Even so I think this is worth passing on to the RAF. I'm sure they'd be happy to stump up the 7 quid to get the birth certificate to prove whether or not Patricia is the daughter of John V ROBINSON & Ethel M HALES.
Will continue to look through the birth indexes for 1942 & 1943 to see if there are any other candidates.
Al
The RAF base near Whitchurch, Shrops.
http://www.controltowers.co.uk/T-V/Tilstock.htm
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I e-mailed the BBC earlier on to see if they had any extra info, and got a very prompt and nice reply from a lass called Sue. She referred me back to the lady at the RAF. I have just mailed Sue again and asked if the BBC would do a follow up on this if we were sucessful, and if so how would the BBC like to volunteer £8.50 for the cert. Cheeky, but if you don't ak, you don't get.
Sarah.
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Am now so excited I am tempted to rush off and order the cert myself. Gosh what a long wait, and its not even a rellie of mine.
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I've finished checking the birth indexes up to June Quarter 1943 which by my calculations is the latest a child of the late Sgt Robinson could have been born and have found one another possible candidate:
Births, **** Quarter 1942
ROBINSON, *********
Mother's maiden name: HALES
Ref: *********
Have PM'ed the full details to Sarah.
Al
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No reply so far from the Genes Reunited queries
Watermusic
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I've finished checking the birth indexes up to June Quarter 1943 which by my calculations is the latest a child of the late Sgt Robinson could have been born and have found one another possible candidate:
Births, **** Quarter 1942
ROBINSON, *********
Mother's maiden name: HALES
Ref: *********
Have PM'ed the full details to Sarah.
Al
I think both the births you quote are certain to be his children. How many Robinson-Hales marriages were there at the right time to be producing children then?
I've done quite a bit of this sort of analysis in my own family tree with a lot of success, so unless you're dealing with two common names (and I wouldn't count Hales as particularly common), it's a safe bet.
Of course, it's unfortunate that the children's names are the more common Robinson, but it should still be possible (though costly) to look for relevant marriages some 20-28 years later. I located a living relative who was born Pauline Butler (probably as common as Patricia Robinson) using such an approach. I searched for and listed all possible Pauline Butler marriages, eliminated some based on location, and ranked the remainder in order of my perception of likelihood. Then used the electoral roll and BT.com to locate the phone number of the top candidate, which proved to be the right one (though her husband initially denied it when I called, admitting later that he feared I was a scammer!).
Cheers
Tim
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this could be Kenneth Wakefields father in 1901??
Emma J Wakefield abt 1872 Clapham, Bedfordshire Wife
Joseph Wakefield abt 1872 Derbyshire, Head
Rose A Wakefield abt 1899 Clapham, Bedfordshire, Daughter
Albert J Wakefield abt 1896 Clapham, Bedfordshire, Son
RG13/3206 Folio 66
Page 34
If this is the right one, BT has a listing for a Wakefield in Oakley and one in Great Barford. Both of these are very close to Clapham.
Samesizedfeet, did we have the same French teacher??? I can do the monkey in the tree bit too ;D
Silvilocks
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I have some 1837online credits I'm willing to donate to this cause - I bought then when desperate one day to do a search from work but I cant really do that often (boss doesnt approve for some reason) and my home computer doesnt run DjVu - so at the minute they're just going to waste.
anyway - I'm waffling - if anyone want to suggest what I could be searching for to be most productive I'll find some quiet moments in the office today
Zoe
I'm going to start looking for a birth for Peter Sharman
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Hi Zoe
I've also got some credits - and a boss in the office until 11-ish. After that I was going to have a look for any Wakefields born in the right area around 1915-1925. If you want to try that if nothing else is suggested, I'll check back here before I start, and see if anything new has come up.
Cheers
Silvilocks
Just missed you - I'll stick with the Wakefields then
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Alcrighton pointed out, and I have to say it never crossed my mind, that we are now dealing with living people, unusual in this game I know !!!!! Alcrington suggested we refrain from using the childrens names in postings on here as we don't really have their permission, and much as us lot would love nothing more than a phone call out of the blue saying hey, people are digging up your family and have loadsa juicy stuff for you, these people might not. I don't know how to edit postings on here but some one will be able to do it. In future perhaps we could call the children by their initials. If anyone needs to find the full details they can pm either Alcrighton, myself, or anyone else who has posted on this thread. I'm sure every one will understand the need for a little tact here.
With regards, Sarah.
Moderator Comment: A very good point - Please all take note !!
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Just a thought here, if Mrs Robison was widowed with one/two young children she may well have re married.
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okey cokes - I have searched 1837 for a birth for Peter Siegrfried Sharman from 1920 (Dec) thru to 1924 (Dec) and have only come up with these:
1923 M - Peter K Sharman Bolton - Mothers Maiden Name = Levitt
1923 S - Peter G Sharman Biggleswade - MMN = Jarman
1923 D - Peter R Sharman Basford - MMN = Robinson
1924 S - Peter W Sharman Ipswich - MMN = Burl
1924 D - Peter L Sharman Headington - MMN Panting
I've saved all the pages so as soon as I get time to concentrate properly I will go back through them and see if I can find any likely candidates for other children of the divorcee couple found on page one.
If I have made a glaring mistake in birth years for Peter please let me know - from his age at death I had him worked out to born between Aug 1921 and AUg 1922
Zoe
p.s. still have plenty of credits left but no time right now to look
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Hi,
Bev got in touch with me because , like her, i'm researching a Sharman family from Derbyshire.
My family came from the village of Baslow, not all that far from Buxton, but from what I can see the family of Peter Siegrfied originated from Cuckfield in Sussex and not Derbyshire.
His Father's name George is a family name from the line I'm following but then the name George was not uncommon in the nineteenth century.
By the time George and his son Peter came alomg my ancestors had moved to Stockport. There were other, more distantly related, lines who remained in Derbyshire one from a Thomas Sharman in Stoney Middleton and the other from George Sharman in Eyam and Grindleford Bridge. However I haven't come across a George Owen Sharman or Peter Siegrfried but will let you know if I can find a link.
Good luck with your search
Jean Sandra
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Fairly sure this is Kenneth Wakefield's birth:
Q2 1922 in Derby. For privacy reasons I've emailed the full details including mothers maiden name to Sarah.
This looks like his parents marriage:
1921 Q4 West Ham (They got around a bit). Albert J Wakefield to Alice J H (witheld)
BUT - Alice's maiden name is the same as mine - and I do have a branch which were in West Ham in 1901. :o
Really wish my boss would clear off now - I want do more searches!
Cheers
Silvilocks
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Alice J H Wakefield (married name) was born 1896 in Poplar
struggling to find her in 1901 under maiden name tho. Year of birth will help narrow down when we're trying to trace her whereabouts at time of her death
Zoe
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I think I've found Alice on the 1901 (and she isn't mine - sob). Can somebody confirm that it's OK for us to put Alice's details on here, or would it best not to for now in case any living children are upset by it? If anyone wants the census ref. until this is confirmed then I will send it by PM - Zoe, will send it to you now, in case you're still hunting for it.
Silvilocks
Added: I've now used up the credits that I had - I've searched to the end of 1926 for any siblings of Kenneth's, with no luck. Of course it's possible that his mother died soon after he was born and that his father remarried and moved.
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I should think it would be ok to post Alice on here. If its from 1901 it is outside the 100 yrs closure jobby. what a shame shes not yours :'(
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Alice in 1901:
Alice Ives abt 1896 Bromley, London, England Daughter
Annie Ives abt 1894 Bromley, London, England Daughter
Eleanor Ives abt 1892 Bromley, London, England Daughter
Frederick Ives abt 1890 Bromley, London, England Son
Michael Ives abt 1859 Kirby Cane, Norfolk, England Head
Rosa Ives abt 1860 Parham, Suffolk, England Wife
Rosa Ives abt 1888 Kings Cross, London, England Daughter
Bromley, London
RG13/350 Folio 36
Page 12
Checked with Sarah who thinks the following is OK to post - if there's a problem, could a mod please edit as necessary. Re Peter Sharman - none of the birth's that Zoe found look right for him, and I've just realized how the date's work out. Peter was born in 1921/22 but his father didn't divorce his wife until 1928. Would the child of an unmarried couple be registered in the father's name at that time, or should we be looking for Peter Gabrielson?
Silvilocks
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I've found children of unmarried couples under either mother's name or father's name. If he was still married at the time, it would be likely that he'd be found as Gabrielson (or Gabrielsen - I think Elena appears on the 1901 as Caroline Gabrielsen, has two sisters and a brother Morris, who died in WWI).
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just about to start lunch break so I'll look again for him under Gabrielson as I munch.
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Now that is either dedication or addiction !!!!!!!
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yaaaaaaaaaaaay - got him
1922 Sep Q
Peter S S Gabrielson
Ref: ************
S S = Siegfried Sharman??
the only other Gabrielsons in the little bit I searched (1921S - 1922S) were in W Derby - so same rough area
Moderator Comment: Any births less than 100 years ago = Discretion, please !
sorry - so excited I wasnt thinking.
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okay - I'm flustered - any guidance as to which way to go next?
A) Do I look for any possible births for Sharmans from the 1st marriage? (considering the history we can't be sure they'll even be half siblings)
B) Do I look for other Gabrielson births with unmarried mothers?
C) Do I look for a marriage between Peters mother and father after 1928? (this would narrow down what surname we'd be looking for siblings under)
D) All of the above
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okay - I'm flustered - any guidance as to which way to go next?
A) Do I look for any possible births for Sharmans from the 1st marriage? (considering the history we can't be sure they'll even be half siblings)
B) Do I look for other Gabrielson births with unmarried mothers?
C) Do I look for a marriage between Peters mother and father after 1928? (this would narrow down what surname we'd be looking for siblings under)
D) All of the above
Well done you - did you manage to eat as well?
I think I'd go for B or C first, and keep the half-siblings in reserve. D is a good option if your boss goes home early on Fridays.
Just to add to your list, has anyone looked at whether Leonard Moss may have had any children? I know we have his wife's name, but not sure if we have a date of marriage.
Going to read the thread again to check - and then probably off to buy some more credits.
Silvilocks
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no Sharman/Gabrielson marriages between 1928 and 1935 so he didnt seem overly keen to be sealing his love witha kiss
will concentrate on Gabrielson births for now starting after birth of Peter
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I don't suppose anyone could look for Ethels Birth. I know with out a date it might be tricky. Tis just an idea. Being as I don't have a card so I can't by credit at 1837, I am busy compiling all the info we have so far on each guy and sticking them in my family tree program, not much use but it means I feel like I'm doing something whilst I wait for the next heart stopping e-mail to pop up on my screen. I have phoned Sue Raftree and left a message. I hope she was at lunch and is not screening her calls so as to avoid mad peeps from rootschat that keep hassling her about dead peeps. ;D . If she returns my call I will ask her if RAF can buy the certs.
Silvilocks - I bet you nearly swallowed your sarny whole when you found that.
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Note: according to another article about this in the Birmingham Post, Jose Moss lived in Green Lane, Coventry, and remarried to a Johnston. (It also has the contact for Sue, so the RAF already know this information).
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Just Googled 'Jose Hicken' (L Moss's wife) and got these two sites:
http://www.angelfire.com/ok/nzfamily/photosK.html
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/l/e/e/Sarndra-E-Leeswilson/ODT1-0001.html
The name isn't common, and given the fact that her second marriage was also to an NZ airman, I think she's probably the right one. The fact that she's English rather than a New Zealander, should mean we stand a better chance of finding the marriage and/or any children.
Silvilocks
Edit: Sarah, I think your message to me was for Zoe - I was far too busy in my lunch hour to eat - I was doing all the work I haven't done all morning ;D
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first possible sibling for PETER SHARMAN (from hunting for Gabrielson births with maiden name Gabrielson)
Carol born **** - same geographical area
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When talking to the RAF lady it might be as well to check what they have tried to contact the living rellies.
There are pages on Ceefax, for example, or maybe we could find out what school they attended and old friends or neighbours might know of the family?
have the BBC tried broadcasting? I live not far from one of the families, but haven't heard anything despite having the radio on local station all day long.
A ;)
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sorry zoe, was so excited i cant even read or right now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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A couple of things before I go home. (I seem to get less time on the Internet at home than in the office - funny that ??? )
If Sue comes back to you Sarah, would it be an idea to ask if they have made contact with any relatives. When I spoke to her yesterday, I think she said somebody had been in touch about Leonard Moss. If they've definitely found someone, we can concentrate on the other men.
If the RAF aren't willing to pay for any certificates, would it be worth getting in touch with somebody like the RAF Benevolent Fund? I don't know anything about exactly who and how they help, but it can't hurt to ask. If nothing else, they may be able to bombard the relevant people at the RAF until they give in!
Silvilocks
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Zoe, could you pm me the ref for Peters birth ?
fank choo super sleuth.
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Looks like there was an original crew of 7 - where are the other men??
This plane is Stirling I W7624 LS-E from 15 Squadron
According to the entry in RAF Bomber Command Losses by W R Chorley it took off 2100 from Bourn. Believed shot down by a night fighter (Oblt Viktor Buer, III./NJG1) to crash near Bentelo in the commune of Delden. F/Sgt G A Smith RNZAF rests in Ambt-Delden Cemetery.
They were inbound for Kassel - another source states that at least three of the seven crew were seen to bale out. The Rear Gunners (Smith) parachute failed to deploy and he was killed as he struck the ground 5km NE of the crash site. Same source also states that two bodies were recovered from the wreckage - the crew may have jettisoned the bombload, but were unable to jettison the 2000lb bombs. Or alternatively, those bombs were buried deeply, but the others were close to the surface, and so the bomb disposal team of 1942 dealt with them.
Annie
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someone posted a link earlier on the thread that says four parachutes were seen coming from the aircraft - one of these failed
I would assume that the other three all survived
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Name SMITH, GLEN ALLEN
Initials G A
Nationality New Zealand
Rank Flight Sergeant (Air Gnr.)
Regiment Royal New Zealand Air Force
Unit Text 15 (R.A.F.) Sqdn
Age 22
Date of Death 28/08/1942
Service No 403032
Additional information Son of Albert George Smith and of Jeanetta Isobel Ellen Smith (nee Ayton), of Auckland City, New Zealand.
Casualty Type Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference Plot IB. Row K. Grave 6.
Cemetery AMBT-DELDEN GENERAL CEMETERY
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I think the link also says that the men were never heard from again (if I remember rightly)
A ;)
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Maybe it was because they were from NZ too!!
Maybe a post on NZ board might bring some information ... ::)
Annie
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Annie!
I meant that they may not have survived (captured, died in the descent etc), not that they cheerfully b***ed off to NZ and didn't write their thank-you letters!
::)
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I know that Mum!
I was just thinking aloud - that maybe if they were a mixed crew - relatives of the other men maybe in New Zealand or Australia !! ::) and we have the resources to find out!
I've been trying to find out the names of the rest of the crew - no luck just yet!!
Annie
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Peter Sharman /Gabrielson
no marriage for his possible sister between 1940 and 1952 under either name
a handful of Gabrielson marriages in roughly the same area as their births tho - have kept all the pages should we uncover another sibling to search for
Zoe
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Annie!
I meant that they may not have survived (captured, died in the descent etc), not that they cheerfully b***ed off to NZ and didn't write their thank-you letters!
::)
Although one of the messages on the the air battles site referenced earlier in this thread proposed that two of the New Zealanders may have drifted into Germany on their paracutes, I think we can discount this, as the Germans remain, to this day, lousy at rugby.
Tim
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does nayone know where I put the post -it note where I'd written down which years I'd searched for possible siblings of Peter
blowed if I can find it
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I have to say I have no idea about Squadrons etc and how they all get intertwined but this is about the airfield at Bourne where they took off from..... seems they came from Wyton Cambs just wondered if maybe we should be looking there too!
Bourn Cambridgeshire
1941
The airfield at Bourn was constructed during 1940/41 as a satellite for Oakington. In July 1941 testing landings were carried out Wellingtons of 101 Squadron. In the autumn Wellingtons and Stirlings of 7 Squadron were dispersed here and towards the end of the year three large hangars were built for the use of Short Brothers to repair damaged Stirlings of No 3 Group.
On 11th February 1942 101 Squadron moved in from Oakington starting with Wellington ICs but eventually converting to Mark IIIs; the squadron moved to Stradishall in Suffolk on 11th August 1942. They were replaced Stirlings of XV Squadron from Wyton, these were upgraded to Mark IIs a the start of 1943. The XV flew their last mission from Bourn on 10th/11th April 1943.
Bourn was transferred to No 8 Group, No 97 ('Straits Settlement') PFF flying Lancasters who flew their first mission from Bourn 26/27th April 1943. The losses, and therefore reduction in strength of the squadron, caused the squadron to be loaned to No 5 Group, leaving for Coningsby 18th April 1944.
On 23rd March 1944 the first Mosquitos arrived from Marham belonging to 105 Squadron. The squadron was equipped in March 1944 with Mosquito BIXs and BXVIs. On 18th December 1944 a further Mosquito Squadron, No 162, was formed at Bourn. The 2/3rd May 1945 saw the last operastion for both 105 and 162 Squadrons.
Annie
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I know I'm not the only one to have been folowing this thread with immense interest since it was first posted 8) But I just wanted to say, you guys are AWESOME :D You've all spent hours and hours of your time, not to say money on trying to trace living relatives for these men so that they can at last be laid to rest in a decent & dignified manner, hopefully with blood relatives in attendance. These young airman who died in the defence of their country are so deserving of your efforts and I salute you all :)
This is such a tremendous story I hope the BBC embraces the whole thing and makes it very public!
GO ROOTSCHATTERS, I'm cheering for you and those airman. I just know they will be reunited with their kith & kin ;)
Jane
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Well said Jane................I agree with every word.
I have been reading this thread with great interest, and you lot are amazing.
Rootschat definitely deserves some more recognition after this.
Jan :D
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I know I'm not the only one to have been folowing this thread with immense interest since it was first posted 8) But I just wanted to say, you guys are AWESOME :D You've all spent hours and hours of your time, not to say money on trying to trace living relatives for these men so that they can at last be laid to rest in a decent & dignified manner, hopefully with blood relatives in attendance. These young airman who died in the defence of their country are so deserving of your efforts and I salute you all :)
This is such a tremendous story I hope the BBC embraces the whole thing and makes it very public!
GO ROOTSCHATTERS, I'm cheering for you and those airman. I just know they will be reunited with their kith & kin ;)
Jane
What more can I say :D - except...
If the RAF aren't willing to pay for any certificates, would it be worth getting in touch with somebody like the RAF Benevolent Fund? I don't know anything about exactly who and how they help, but it can't hurt to ask. If nothing else, they may be able to bombard the relevant people at the RAF until they give in!
Silvilocks
How about The Royal British Legion, they might help.
Suey
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slightly veering off on a tangent but....
One of Grace Evelyn Sharman (nee Rogers) possible suitors was Lawrene H Bradshaw, artist.
There is a Lawrence Bradshaw 1899-1978 who was a sculptor and he sculpted the bust of Karl marx in Highgate cemetery
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Can someone make a short summary of where you're at :) ?
As this is 6 pages long as I type & going to get longer ;)
Keep up the VERY good work!
Jane
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I think Sarah E was putting one together
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another candidate for Elena Josephina Carolina gabrielson:
1901 census
73 Pitt Street(?) Liverpool
John A Gabrielson abt 1846 Swedish Subject, Sweden Head - shipping agent
Adolfina Gabrielsonabt 1859Swedish Subject, Sweden Wife
F Eliz Gabrielson abt 1889 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Daughter
Gustaf A Gabrielson abt 1883 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Son - sugar mechants clerk
John H Gabrielson abt 1886 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Son - french polisher
Eleanor J Gabrielson abt 1892 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Daughter
Ernest Gabrielson abt 1893 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Son
Frederick Gabrielson abt 1895 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Son
Thomas J Gabrielson abt 1898 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
1891
6 Hardy Street, Liverpool
Gabrielson, John A abt 1846 Sweden Head - boarding house keeper
Gabrielson, Adolfina abt 1860 Sweden Wife
Gabrielson, Gustaf A abt 1883 Liverpool Son
Gabrielson, Charles W abt 1885 Liverpool Son Liverpool Lancashire
Gabrielson, John H abt 1886 Liverpool Son
Gabrielson, Beatrice H abt 1888 Liverpool Daughter
Gabrielson, Frederica E abt 1889 Liverpool Daughter
1881
50 Bridgewater St, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John A. Gabrielson abt 1846 Sweden Head - outfitter
Annie C. Gabrielson abt 1876 L Pool, Lancashire, England Daughter
Albertina H. Gabrielson abt 1859 Sweden Sister
There is also a:
Severin Gabrielson abt 1849 (British Subjt), Sweden Head - seaman
living in West Derby which is where I found other gabrielson births earlier
the Sweden connection might provide more of a clue to the Siegfried
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John August Gabrielson married Adolfina Johanson in Sep Q 1882
Gustaf Adolf Gabrielson born Mar Q 1883
Elena Josefina C Gabrielson born Sep Q 1891 Liverpool
Ernest Ludwick Gabrielson born Jun Q 1893
Frederick Antonius Gabrielson born Jun Q 1895
Thoms Gotfrid Gabrielson born Jun Q 1897
Beatrice Helena Gabrielson born Jun Q 1887
Carl Willhelm gabrielson born Sep Q 1884
Johan Henrick gabrielson born Dec Q 1885
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Just to echo Jane's sentiments - its been brilliant watching this thread develop today. May have to add it to my list of all-time Rootschat favourites!
cheers
Paul
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This is the reply I got from the BBC.
Wow - you're website is incredible .. I can't believe how busy you've all been
since the story appeared on BBC News Online!!!
We would certainly be interested in following up the story if relatives are
found - I actually work on the South East part of the website, which is why the
story was focused on Sgt Robinson, from Kent, but my colleagues in the other
regions would probably want to do stories on the guys in their patches too.
I'm afraid, however, that we wouldn't be willing to foot the cost for any birth
certificates.
Please keep me in touch with how you get on. I'm actually going to put in
another call to Sue Raftree next week to see if she has any updates for us.
Best wishes,
Sue
I am going to approach the RAF Benevolant Fund today.
I should be finished compiling what we have by about 10 so I will post it up then. Tis quite a bit of info.
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Morning all
Arranroots asked if we can find out what the RAF have done to try and find living relatives - isn't that something we could have a go at. I don't mean phoning people out of the blue, but between them, Rootschatters must know of every family history forum and message board in existence. Couldn't we post in as many places as possible, giving the link to the BBC article (and a link to this thread?), together with the following information - name, place and year of birth of the airmen, parents names (including maiden name) with year and place of their wedding. I don't think any of that would raise privacy issues. On forums, it could be posted in all relevant sections, i.e. the surname boards, WW2 boards, New Zealand boards and any "general topics" board.
I know how often I've browsed through message boards and thought "I know that name" - it might raise something.
I can't do anything this morning, but I should get some time on the computer this afternoon. (I'm not really here now - I'm halfway thru defrosting the freezer.)
If anyone does do this, could they add here saying where they've posted, so we can avoid duplication - Rootschatters don't want to get a reputation for spamming!
I have to go - the dog's licking the ice out of the freezer ::) - but I'll be back on later.
Cheers
Silvilocks
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:-[ I have a horrible hang over and my brain refuses to work today. I said I would have the compilation on here by ten but so far I have only done Robinson and am half way through Sharman. I will how ever have it done by this afternoon, if my head doesnt drop off before then. Any sensitive names i will just use first initials for if that ok.
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I've left messages on the WWII and New Zealand boards at Ancestry, and on the WWII board in British-Genealogy forums. Will try and fit in time later to add to the surname boards.
Hope your feeling better Sarah - is this supposed to be driving you to drink :o
Silvilocks
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There are 5 Gabrielson's in the phone book for Liverpool. We could pen a letter to write to these people asking them if they recognise the 1901/1891 census families.
You never know.
P ;D
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I've just put a pound on the lottery and will put any winnings towards certs which we think might prove essential for the hunt
unless I get 6 numbers in which case I reserve the right to take a cut for myself ;D
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could this be our same Jose that married Leonard Moss??
Pictured with my Great Uncle (his brother-in-law)
Robert (Bob) Allan JOHNSTON
Born 6 December 1915, Christchurch, New Zealand
Married 11 September 1943, Coventry Registry Office, Coventry, England
To Jose HICKEN (12/6/1922 ~ 10/3/1999)
Died 20 February 1993, Coventry, England
Military: Sergeant Gunner. RNZAF 403010
Shot down three times.
(taken from - http://www.angelfire.com/ok/nzfamily/photosK.html )
I've emailed the owner of the wesbite to ask if she thinks its the same woman and invited her to join us
apologies to Silvilocks - i see you already posted this a couple of pages ago. ther marraige between Jose Moss nee Hicken to Bob Johnston (another NZRAF man) produced two children according to this tree. A boy in 1949 and a girl in 1961.
The family were based in Coventry and Jose was born in 1922 died in 1999.
This would be a good route to start chasing becasue I'd assume that any offspring or the marriage between Leonard and Jose would have stayed with their mother in England
PM me for names - theres also other data available from tree
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okay - stand by your beds - I've got a live one
There is a child of the 2nd marriage of Jose Hicken (1st to Leonard Moss) coming up on the electoral search - having matched up his spouse in the household.
Unfortunately I dont have credits for 192.com so can't get a full address so we can write.
Can anyone help out here? I will ask for a lookup in 192 on GenesReunited but sometimes you have to wait a bit for a response for these.
Zoe
;D :D ;D ::)
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Hi Zoe
You are going great guns!!
Try a separate post on the Resources board & cut & paste this URL into it, so folk can read it if they haven't already.
Someone may not have read ALL of this, but may be able to help at this poiont?
A ;)
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okay - have found address using b4usearch so will now try and compose a letter
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:) Hi Zoe.... i received your message on my website guestbook. You may contact me on sojourn1962[AT]xtra.co.nz
I look forward to hearing from you!
Sarndra
Christchurch, New Zealand
www.angelfire.com/ok/nzfamily
Moderator Comment: e-mail edited, to avoid spamming and other abuses. Please replace [AT] with @
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Wow i've read the thread! And as an avid genealogist going on 28 years now, i'm impressed :-) this is the sort of stuff that i'd be doing myself! I think..inessence ...is at the heart of a true genealogist.
I am pretty sure that Josie and Leonard (Len) did not have any children as i have never over the years heard from any family members that there were. I will endeavour to get the address of Josie and Bobs daughter for you Zoe (if you don't get it before me). I will also put a message on other genealogical groups that i am on to see if we may be able to find siblings/family of Len's still alive.
I never met my Great Aunt Josie or Uncle Bob unfortunately, but was kept up to date with family information via my Grandmother (Bobs sister) and other relatives. This is an awesome story :-) I always thought it very romantic that Bob married Josie :-)
Sarndra
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Hi Sarndra
Thank you for coming along and joining us - great to hear from our first proper relative of one of the airmen.
Have sent you an email.
Zoe
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Oops sorry...read 'Josie' as Jose.... my bad ;-)
Sarndra
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In a funding update - I didn't even get three numbers on the lottery :(
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Hi Zoe :-)
Well technically i'm nothing to him. My G Uncle Bob, Jose's second husband was my blood relation, but this is just such a cool thing!
S
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Sarndra
You're the closest we'e gotten so far ;)
I do tend to get a little over excited by all this so you have to excuse me.
Did my email get to you as my account seems to be having a tantrum this morning and telling me I can't do anything.
Zoe
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Has anyone heard from Sarah E and her update yet?
I'm getting swamped under post-it notes and can't figure where we need to be looking for tracing the other three men forward.
Yours (looking desperately for an excuse to escape DIY),
Zoe
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Zoe and others...the family story as I have it:
Len (Leonard) and my G uncle Bob were friends. Len had said that if anything happened to him would Bob look after Jose... so Bob obviously did.. he and Jose married on 11 Sept 1943 at Coventry Registry Office. Bob was shot down a couple of times during the war... just as well he wasn't on the same plane as Len that night :-|
I find it interesting that Leonards service No. is 403556 and my G Uncle Bobs was 403010 :-)
Sarndra
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;D Yep i replied to your email...is ok...my comp is being a pain today to....
Sarndra
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Right I'm here, sorry this has taken so long, the whole world and his family have decided to visit me over the week end, so I have sat there drinking coffee and twitching all the time whilst my brain is going
'please leave cos i'm hanking to get back to these airmen'
I will post up info on Sharman and Robinson, I think it is all there, if anyone spots anything I have missed, message me asap. I plan to be on here for the rest of the day. Sorry again for the delay, I bet you lot have been sitting there twiddling your thumbs going
'where is this woman !!!!!'
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SHARMAN.
Charles Sharman (bn 1858, Brighton, Sussex) and Mary Ann Burch (bn 1858, Moseley, Surrey).
Married, Dec qtr 1882, Kingston, 2a, 487.
1891, Census. Athelstone lodge, Keymer, Sussex. RG12/793, folio 73, page 22.
1901, Census. Athelston lodge, Keymer, Sussex. RG13/910, folio 74, page 14.
3 Children,
George Owen Sharman, bn Dec qtr 1883, Keymer, Sussex.
William Leonard Sharman, bn Sept qtr 1885, Keymer, Sussex. Married Dec qtr 1907, Steyning, 2b, 590. Spouse unknown at present.
Mary Ethel Sharman, bn Jun qtr 1891, Keymer, Sussex. Died Dec qtr 1891, Keymer, Sussex.
1891, Census. George O Sharman, son, single, 7, scholar, bn Keymer, Sussex. Athelstone lodge, Keymer, Sussex. RG12/793, folio 73, page 22.
1895, Class List. Possibly attended Varndeans Boys School in Brighton and Hove district, name down as George O Sharman, Class of 1895.
1901, Census. George O Sharman, son, single, 17, upholsterer, bn Keymer, Sussex. Athelston lodge, Keymer, Sussex. RG13/910, folio 74, page 14.
1909, Marriage. Jun qtr 1909 - George Owen Sharman and Grace Evelyn Rogers, Edmonton, 3a, 799.
Grace Evelyn Rogers, bn Jun qtr 1882, St Pancras, 1b, 108.
1928, Divorce. The Times, Saturday, Mar 03, 1928; pg. 4; Issue 44832; col B and The Times, Wednesday, Mar 28, 1928; pg. 5; Issue 44853; col A record the divorce proceedings of George Owen Sharman and his wife Grace Evelyn Sharman, nee Rogers. They had a son and two daughters, but George was said to have committed adultery with a Elena Josephina Carolina Gabrielson ('Gabriel', the listed mother of Peter Siegfried?), and in return he accused Grace of adultery with Mr Lawrence H. Bradshaw, artist, and Mr Austin Osmond Square.
A decree nisi was granted, with the care of the two youngest children given to the father (they had been living in the same house as George and Elena for some time.)
There is a Lawrence Bradshaw 1899-1978 who was a sculptor and he sculpted the bust of Karl marx in Highgate cemetery
(provided by same sized feet).
GABRIELSON
John August Gabrielson (bn 1846, Sweden) and Louisa Charlotte UNKNOWN (bn 1841, probably Sweden)
1 Child
Annie Charlotte Gabrielson, bn Mar qtr 1876, West Derby,
Deaths - Jun qtr 1877, Louisa Charlotte Gabrielson, 36, West derby, 8b, 200.
1881, Census. RG11/3616, folio 35, page 63. John Gabrielson is widowed and living with daughter Annie and his sister Albertina H Gabrielson, bn 1859, Sweden.
John August Gabrielson (bn 1846, Sweden) and Adolfina Johanson (bn 1859, Sweden)
Married, Sept qtr 1882, Liverpool, 8b, 90.
1891, Census. RG12/2911, folio 26, page 19.
1901, Census. RG13/3414, folio 159, page 22
9 Children all bn Liverpool, Lancashire.
Gustaf Adolf , Mar qtr 1883,
Carl Wilheim, Sept qtr 1884,
Johan Hendrick, Dec qtr 1885,
Beatrice Helen, Jun qtr 1887,
Frederica Elizabeth, Sept qtr 1888,
Elena Josephina Carolina, Sept qtr 1891,
Ernest Ludwick, Jun qtr 1893,
Frederick Antonius, Jun qtr 1895,
Thomas Gotfrid, Jun qtr 1897.
George Owen Sharman and Elena Josephina Carolina Gabrielson, marriage unknown.
2 Children
Peter S S Gabrielson, Sept qtr 1922, Toxteth P, 8b, 406.
Death. 28 Aug 1942 Bentelo, Netherlands. - Peter Siegfried Sharman, sergeant, royal airforce volunteer regiment, 20, Son of George Owen Sharman and Gabriel Sharman, of Buxton, Derbyshire.
(CWGC).
C B S Gabrielson (female), Jun qtr 1824, Liverpool, Lancashire, Liverpool, 8b, 606.
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PANTS >:(
I still missed a bit off
1901, Census. Eleanor J Gabrielson, daughter, single, 9, bn Liverpool, Lancashire. 74 Up Pitt Street, St Thomas, Liverpool. RG13/3414, folio 159, page 22.
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ROBINSON
Thomas Wallace Robinson (bn 1820, Marylebone) and Mary Treweeke (bn 1828, St Austell, Cornwall).
Married Jun qtr 1852, Penzance, 5c, 459.
4 Children
Thomas Fred Robinson, bn 1854, Lelant, Cornwall.
Harriet Robinson, bn 1855, Lelant, Cornwall.
Hubert Treweeke Robinson, bn 1857, Hayle, Cornwall.
Edith Mary Robinson, bn 1867, Penzance, Cornwall.
1871, Census. Hubert T Robinson, son, single, 13, scholar, bn Phillack, Cornwall. Corn?? Road, Phillack, Cornwall. RG10/2327, folio 43, page 4.
1881, Census. Herbert T Robinson, son, single, 24, fuse makers accountant, bn Hayle, Cornwall. Beacon Hill Villas, Cambourne, Cornwall. RG11/2334, folio 74, 35.
Marriages, Hubert Treweeke Robinson and Alice Burns S Curnow (bn 1856, Cambourne, Cornwall). June qtr 1885, Redruth, 5c, 392.
1891, Census. Hubert T Robinson, head, married, 34, accountant, bn Hayle, Cornwall. Redrooke Terrace, Cambourne, Cornwall. RG12/1850, folio 70, page 32.
1901, Census. Hubert T Robinson, head, married, 44, fuse works accountant, bn Hayle, Cornwall. Beacon Hill, Cambourne, Cornwall. RG13/2243, folio 49, page 13.
1941, Burial. ROBINSON~Robert Treweeke~16/3/1941~84~1857~H/O Alice; F/O Healey Hubert~Centenary~
1945, Burial. ROBINSON~Alice~9/8/1945~89~1856~W/O Robert Treweeke; M/O Healey Hubert~Centenary
1 Child
Hubert Hedley Robinson, bn Dec qtr 1886, Redruth, 5c, 215.
1901, Census. Hubert H Robinson, boarder, single, 14, pupil, bn Cambourne, Cornwall. Dunheved College, St Mary Magdalane, Cornwall.
(Census). RG13/2183, folio 29, page 50.
Marriage, Huburt Hedley Robinson and C Helena Gerard, date unknown at present.
1945, Death. 19 Feb 1945 - Hubert Hedley Robinson, OBE, Merchant Navy, SS Empire Success, 58, Husband of C. Helen Robinson, of Wimborne Minster, Dorsetshire. His son, John Victor, also died on service.
1945, Headstone. - 1945 - ROBINSON~Healey Hubert~19/2/1945~59~1886~S/O Robert Treweeke & Alice~Centenary
1 Child
John V Robinson, mothers maiden name Gerard, Sept qtr 1919, Axbridge, 5c, 588.
1941, Marriage. June qtr 1941 - John V Robinson and Ethel M Hales, New forrest, 2b, 2363.
1942, Death. 28 Aug 1942 - John V Robinson, seargent, Royal Air Force, 23, Son of Hubert Hedley Robinson, O.B.E., Merchant Navy, Master S.S. Empire Success (London). (Died on active service, 19th February, 1945), and of C. Helen Robinson, of Wimborne Minster, Dorset. Husband of Ethel M. Robinson.
2 Children
Dec qtr 1941 - P Robinson (female), mothers maiden name Hales, Whitchurch, 6a 1660.
Jun qtr 1942, R T Robinson (male), mothers maiden name Hales, Brighton, 2b, 253.
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BRILLIANT account, Sarah! Who said genealogy wasn;t an obsession? ;D :) :) :)
Looks like you are homing in on the descendants!
cheers
Paul
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WAKEFIELD
Marriage, James Timms (bn 1811, Coventry) and Harriet Mills (bn 1807, Coventry). 20 April 1835, St Michaels, Coventry.
Marriage, John Wakefield (bn 1837, Coventry) and Sarah Timms ( bn 1839, Coventry, Dec qtr 1859, Coventry, 6d, 622.
7 Children
Frederick James Wakefield, Sept qtr 1860, Coventry.
Elizabeth Aaa Wakefield, Sept qtr 1862, Coventry.
William Wakefield, 1870, Derbyshire.
Joseph Wakefield, 1872, Derbyshire.
George H Wakefield, 1874, Derbyshire.
Arthur Thomas Wakefield, 1877, Derbyshire.
Sarah E Wakefield, 1880, Derbyshire.
1881, Census. Joseph Wakefield, son, single, 9, scholar, bn Derbyshire. 37 Yates Street, Litchurch, Derbyshire. RG11/3403, folio 12, page 17.
1891, Census. Joseph Wakefield, son, single, 19, printer, bn Derby, Derbyshire. 113 Yates Street, Litchurch, Derbyshire.
RG12/2735, folio 23, page 39.
Marriage, William Kirby (bn 1845, Clapham) and Elizabeth Unknown (bn 1847, Kempston. Dec qtr 1868, Bedford, 3b, 275. This is only a possible, have found William but not Elizabeth.
4 Children
Mary E Kirby, 1869, Clapham.
Emma Jane Kirby, bn 1872, Clapham.
Marg E Kirby, 1876, Clapham.
Ada E Kirby, 1878, Clapham.
1881, Census. Emma Kirby, daughter, single, 9, scholar, bn Clapham, Bedfordshire. High Road, Clapham, Bedfordshire. RG11/1621, folio 27, page 5.
1891, Census. Emma Kirby, daughter, single, 19, drees maker, bn Clapham, Bedfordshire.
RG12/1250, folio 24, page 5.
Marriage. Jun qtr 1894, Joseph Wakefield and Emma Jane Kirby, Bedford, 3b, 595.
2 Children
Albert Joseph Wakefield, Dec qtr 1895, Bedfordshire, 3b, 320.
Rose Ada Wakefield, Mar qtr 1899, Bedfordshire, 3b, 330.
1901, Census. Albert J Wakefield, son, single, 5, bn Clapham, Beds. 67 Randholp (Randolph ??) Road, Normanton, Derbyshire.RG13/3206, folio 66, page 34.
Marriages Michael Ives and Rosa Unknown. Marriage date unknown at present.
1871, Census. RG10/1830, folio 91, page 4.
1881, Census. RG11/1962, folio 91, page 4.
1891, Census. RG12/321, folio 59, page 9.
6 Children
Robert Ives, bn 1887, Kings Cross, London.
Rosa Ives, bn 1888, Kings Cross, London.
Frderick Ives, bn 1890, Bromley, London.
Eleanor ives, bn 1892, Bromley, London.
Annie Ives, bn 1894, Bromley, London.
Alice Jessie H Ives, Jun qtr 1896, Poplar, 1c, 613.
1901, Census. Alice Ives, daughter, single, 5, bn Bromley, London. 105, Fairfoot Road, Bromley, London. RG13/350, folio 36, page 12.
1921, Marriage. Dec qtr 1921, Alfred J Wakefield and Alice J H Ives, West Ham, 4a, 687.
1 Child.
June qtr 1922, Kenneth Wakefield, mothers maiden name Ives, Derby, 7b, 1054.
1942, Death. 28 Aug 1942, Kenneth Wakefield, flight sergeant, Royal airforce volunteer reserve, 20, Son of Albert J. and Alice J. Wakefield, of Bedford.
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I will do Moss tomorrow evening, although there isnt much to put up there at the moment, I have to drive a friend to London tomorrow morning, so im afraid Leonard will have to wait another day. Hope this helps a little now its tidied up. Geez though it was hard not to go wandering off down various family lines, especially Gabrielson. Twas liking opening a pack of choccy biccies and only allowing yourself 2 from the whole pack, almost torture it was.
There are still quite a few avenues of research open, maybe cousins, second cousins etc. I will have another dig tomorrow when I get back. Please think of me sat on my hands all day whilst you guys run around digging up little gems. This is the most exciting thing I have done in ages.
Well done to all of you, yet again you have proved that many heads make like work (mind you 1837.com credits help aswell).
love Sarah xx
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Oops, nearly forgot, I found this piccy today, I believe it's the type of plane our guys were flying at the time they were shot down.
-
one sibling for Kenneth Wakefiled
Derek * Wakefield born *** 1926 - Poplar
searched 1923 to 1937 - when mother would be 41
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I was just wondering - after looking at the CWGC entry again - Leonard's Mum and Dad lived in Marton Wellington - would it be worth while getting in touch with the police there - to see if they could help with any relatives who still live there - or do you think that has already been done?
Name: MOSS, LEONARD EDWARD
Initials: L E
Nationality: New Zealand
Rank: Sergeant
Regiment: Royal New Zealand Air Force
Unit Text: 15 Sqdn.
Age: 28
Date of Death: 28/08/1942
Service No: 403556
Additional information: Son of William Johnson Moss and Ivy Myrtle Unita Moss, of Marton, Wellington, New Zealand; husband of Jose Hicken Moss.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 117.
Cemetery: RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL
http://www.police.govt.nz/operation/wellington/
Annie
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two more siblings for Peter Sharman
1928 - Soleil LS born Wirral
married 1950 in Kensington to Hill
1930 - MIa LS born Wirral
no marriage found yet
-
a local historian in Marton New Zealand
http://www.marton.co.nz/tracing.htm
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This is just to say that I haven't lost interest, but our office move has been pushed up from next week to this ::) I'm lucky to find a working puter at the moment!
I take it nothing's been heard from the RAF yet as to whether they've had any luck in tracing relatives?
Will follow this as and when it's possible, and hopefully be back to help in a couple of days.
Cheers
Silvilocks
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Have emailed a New Zealand newspaper (Taranaki daily News) to see if they cover area of Marton or if they can point us in the direction of one in the area
-
Possibly better to go for larger paper like NZ Herald..they are online at www.herald.co.nz especially as relatives could be spread thru out NZ now.
I have put a message in the australia + nz genealogy board but no fruitful replies yet apart to say that Marton is not actually part of Wellington. I don't live up that way so didn't know.
Cheers
Sarndra
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Sarndra
Cheers - will pop off an email to them too when I get a chance
Zoe
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You guys are just wonderful :D I think RootsChat should start a commendation awards scheme, something along the lines of.' Services to genealogy above and beyond the call of duty' ;D I would be the first to nominate you all for a gold star,
Jane
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I'd second that Jane!
Jill
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Right every body,
Sue Raftree has just phoned me, I am about to e-mail her all of the info. She cannot access the website as MOD computers won't allow it. She will check out all the info and run with it from there. I'm sure this will possibly be the biggest email she ever had, lol. Now according to Sue, when they excavated the plane they only found three sets of remains so I am going to ask in the e-mail if she can let us know which ones. I am also going to contact the lady at the BBC and see if they are going to follow it up as well. I have to say though, Well done everyone. I feel so proud of all of you, I really wasn't sure if Rootschatters could pull this one off but you did.
Sarah.
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Hi Sarah,
Does that mean that living relatives of all three men have been found & if so will there be an internment for these airman anytime soon?
Jane
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Hi Jane,
So far we found two children to Robinson, 3 Siblings to Sharman (Gabrielson) and 1 Sibling to Wakefield. The interment will be in Holland (as is Military tradition, where they fell etc.....), but this won't take place untill the families have been contacted.
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Sent all the info off to Sue Raftree and here is her reply
Sarah
I have now had the opportunity to read the email. It is excellent. So much
information. I do not know how to thank you and the rest of those involved.
Please convey my thanks to them.
I will investigate the leads and let you know the outcome.
Regards Sue
So I guess now we have to sit and wait to see what happens.
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That's very cool :-) and if we genealogists do one thing great... that's wait!
It's all captivating!
Sarndra
www.angelfire.com/ok/nzfamily :D
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and don't let anyone tell you that hours of peering at the computor screen and "looking for dead people" is a waste of time ! :D
Well done indeed to everyone who contributed to this and how great that there was a successful outcome!
Suey
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Very well done to you all, I hope the BBC take this up and you and Rootschat get the recognition you deserve for being so successful, we're all proud of you all.
These brave men will now rest in peace thanks to your efforts. A wonderful job!
Mary
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I'll second that Mary,
Shows what can be acheived when many mind work, with the assistance of modern technology (and Sarah & Trystan), together.
I hope the families are contacted, Rootchat gets recognition and The Men Rest in Peace.
Well done to all of you
Wendi
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Hi
Had an email today replying to one the messages I posted on Ancestry's boards regarding Leonard Moss (the New Zealander) -
"William Johnson MOSS died in 1958 - his obituary stated that he was survived by his wife, son Harry (of Marton) and daughter Mavis JEFFERSON (of Marton), and 6 grandchildren. His son Len was posted missing with the RNZAF in WWII.
I'll see if I can find a grandchild ...."
:) Good innit?
As we weren't able to trace any descendants of Leonard's from his marriage here, would it be too late to send any info we get about the New Zealand family on to the RAF?
Silvilocks
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Sent all the info off to Sue Raftree and here is her reply
Sarah
I have now had the opportunity to read the email. It is excellent. So much
information. I do not know how to thank you and the rest of those involved.
Please convey my thanks to them.
I will investigate the leads and let you know the outcome.
Regards Sue
So I guess now we have to sit and wait to see what happens.
Never too late I'd say :D
Suey
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What's happening with the search? Does anyone know? Have they had the funerals for the airmen?
Sarndra
www.angelfire.com/ok/nzfamily :o
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???Youuuu whooo anyone out there?
Does anyone know the outcome of the bodies in the Plane? I emailed Ms Raftree the RAF spokeswoman and have received no reply.
Cheers
Sarndra
www.angelfire.com/ok/nzfamily
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I take it that means we don't know what finally happened. :'(
Silvilocks
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Grrr Sucky :-( i'll say.... i still haven't received a response from emailing RAF on Tuesday 25th April. I'll post if i hear.
Sarndra
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WOW . . . It was like reading one of those can'tputitdownforgetaboutdinnerdoyourownbl**dywashingleavemealone mystery novels!! Well done everybody.
I do so hope you get an answer from the RAF. May I suggest contacting the Chaplain of the RAF base . . . they usually have a finger in the pie of everything happening on base and you may have more luck there. Ms Raftree may have been posted and no longer on that base.
Good luck
Barbara 8)
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Does anyone else think its wonderful that the person trying to sort out the family history of these flyers is called Sue RAF Tree?
;D ;D ;D
Well done everybody for the work you've all put in on this!
Paul
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WOW . . . It was like reading one of those can'tputitdownforgetaboutdinnerdoyourownbl**dywashingleavemealone mystery novels!!
I agree with you there Barbara, i have just found this topic
and read it all. First Rootschatters help the A Policeman solve a case, Now The R.A.F are getting Help. Fantastic, hope you have all got new frocks for your television appearance ;) I shall wait for the next chapter of the story :)
Celia
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It's awesome isn't it :-) ... and a great reminder of how powerful the internet can be..... and i STILL haven't heard back from the RAF after my 25 April email..... :-(
Photo attached of (from l to r) Bob (Josies second husband), Josie (formerly Moss nee Hicken) and Bobs brother Norman Johnston. Photo taken November 1945 in Wellington, New Zealand.
Sarns
www.angelfire.com/ok/nzfamily
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Hello Folks,
Sorry to take so long to get back to you but I have had computer problems and then had to move house. I recieved an e-mail a couple of weeks ago from Sue Raftree to say that thanks to us they had managed to trace relatives of the air men and were flying them out to holland for the funeral. She also said to pass on thanks to all of you lot from the RAF and the families. So hows that for a result.
take care and thanks for all the help
Sarah
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WOWWW! THAT IS TERRIFIC!
If there are any news links to the ceremonies etc please post them if you see them...sometimes these can be a bit obscure... i'll keep my eye out on bbc.co.uk anyway.
Thanks again for keeping us up to date Sarah
Cheers
Sarndra
New Zealand
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I'm sorry i missed the fun!
well done all.
Has anyone contacted the BBC to let them know yet?
Sue
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Another contact wrote to me a few days back to say that the official burial service is planned for 28 August this year - the 64th anniversary of the loss.
Just incase anyone was interested.
Cheers
Sarndra
www.angelfire.com/ok/nzfamily
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Great work everyone!
Sniff :'( I do like a good ending...
Suey
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I've got some extra tissues Suey :-\
Barbara (also sniffing :'( :'( :'( )
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Hello
My name is Emma Robinson and I am the grand daughter of Flight Engineer J V Robinson. My father, my sister and I are flying out to Holland in a couple of weeks for his funeral and I would just like to say thank you for all your hard work and efforts for making this possible. I know we are all incredibly grateful for the opportunity to say thank you and goodbye properly, I am amazed and touched by all the hard work that has gone into it.
Best wishes and many many thanks again.
Emma
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Hi Emma,
you are more than welcome. When I spotted the story and started this thread I had no idea how it would end. I am so glad that you and your family will have the chance to say good bye and that your grand father will get the burial he deserves. I am sure I can say this for all roots chatters involved with this search that we were proud to have helped and very very happy that we managed what we did. All the best
Sarah
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Best wishes to you and your family Emma,
Another pack of tissues open here.
Mary
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What a wonderful ending! Hope all goes well for you and your family Emma.
Best wishes.
Jill
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Indeed our pleasure..... it's wonderful seeing ends to stories. I will be thinking also of Len Moss (great aunt Josie's first husband) on the day of the funeral, and you all.
Cheers
Sarndra Lees
www.angelfire.com/ok/nzfamily
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So very,very,satifying! I,m absolutely delighted my nose was kept out of the way while Wizard's were at work.
May you all be rewarded, somehow, some day.
Goggy. ;) ;D
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How fantastic of everyone, a mystery with a happy ending. I hope you are all proud of yourselves, you did a great job.
Barbara 8)
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Thought you guys might like to see these - put a face to the names.
(need to post them two at a time)
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Moss and Robinson
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Sharman and SMith
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Wakefield
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How fantastic! Thank you so much for the photos...absolutely brilliant! I didn't have a photo of Len Moss :-)
Terribly sad loss of life...all of them.
Cheers
Sarndra Lees
Christchurch, New Zealand
www.angelfire.com/ok/nzfamily
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They were just boys really weren't they!! Good to put faces to the names. Thank you so much.
Barbara 8)
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For all UK members theres a nice write up on this story in tomorrow's Daily Mirror (Saturday 26th August)
Zoe
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Oh my goodness Zoe !!
Thank you so much for the photo's .... gave me goosebumps !!
For all the non UK people who are interested - could you please give us a site to be able to read too !!
I'm sure I'm not the only one who'll be thinking of the families this week-end !
Annie :)
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Hi Annie,
You can find the Daily Mirror online here:
http://www.pressdisplay.com/pressdisplay/viewer.aspx
You have to register but it's free (like all the best sites).
Al
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Hi Annie,
You can read the Mirror here:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/
If you go to: http://www.drudgereport.com/ and scroll to the bottom of the page, you will find all of the UK newsrags....oooops sorry...newspapers.
I love to read The Sun...what a load of old cobblers!...LOL
Indi.....running from the termites! (See CD music)
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Hi Annie,
You can find the Daily Mirror online here:
http://www.pressdisplay.com/pressdisplay/viewer.aspx
You have to register but it's free (like all the best sites).
Al
Thanks Al !
I've been trying to think of other papers too ....... but can't think what I want off the top of my head !! :D :D
Annie :)
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Hi Annie,
You can read the Mirror here:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/
If you go to: http://www.drudgereport.com/ and scroll to the bottom of the page, you will find all of the UK newsrags....oooops sorry...newspapers.
I love to read The Sun...what a load of old cobblers!...LOL
Indi.....running from the termites! (See CD music)
Thanks Indi !!
Sorry to hear about the termites !! yuk ........ :-\ :-\
Annie :)
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Brilliant article! Thank you for the link.... I never realised Aunt Jose actually had a child to Len Moss. My grandmother (her sister in law from second marriage) used to write to her often from New Zealand and gran never mentioned it to me.
Cheers
Sarndra
Hi Annie,
You can read the Mirror here:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/
If you go to: http://www.drudgereport.com/ and scroll to the bottom of the page, you will find all of the UK newsrags....oooops sorry...newspapers.
I love to read The Sun...what a load of old cobblers!...LOL
Indi.....running from the termites! (See CD music)
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I found this thread while idley looking for something else ... and BURNT my porridge !
It was just fascinating ... this is what family history should be about; not so much the 'celebrity finds family' stuff ... although Jeremy Paxman in tears was wonderful !! ;D ;D ;D
Lydart ... about to try and resusitate the saucepan :(
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It showed the funeral of these brave men on the news today. Their families came from all over the world to Holland for the occasion
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Indeed it is humbling to know we all played a part in helping to achieve the wonderful ending to this story. There have been a couple of items on tv here in New Zealand about it which i was delighted to see.
I have now added a page in relation to Len Moss, his wife Jose and her second husband Robert Johnston (my grandmothers brother) at http://www.angelfire.com/ok/nzfamily/jose.html
Thank you all again, I always thought over the years of my genealogical research that it was so sad for Jose to not have closure...indeed sad for all those war widows full stop.
Cheers
Sarndra Lees
Christchurch, New Zealand
www.angelfire.com/ok/nzfamily
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The RAF have an article about the ceremony on their web page:
http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/news_0608_16.html
Al
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Thanks Al !
I especially like the last paragraph ....
So, after 64 years the mystery of Stirling W7624 has been solved and those who gave their lives for their country have finally been honoured, in line with RAF tradition, MOD policy and the wishes of the families.
May they rest in peace
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It was great to read about the quest and the closure.All those that did their bit on Rootschat deserve an accolade at least.
What makes me so sad is the way person's in the Armed Forces kept on going back,again,and again.
That takes courage,once youv'e experienced the nasty bit's.
So young,so determined,so short a life.
R.I.P.
Goggy. :( :(
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It was great to read about the quest and the closure.All those that did their bit on Rootschat deserve an accolade at least.
What makes me so sad is the way person's in the Armed Forces kept on going back,again,and again.
That takes courage,once youv'e experienced the nasty bit's.
So young,so determined,so short a life.
R.I.P.
Goggy. :( :(
It's impossible to imagine how they COULD keep going back once they knew what it was like. I have to admit it makes me angry today when it all seems to have been for nothing. The world as a whole doesn't seem to have learnt anything from previous wars, and it so oftens seems as if the men and women who died and suffered did so in vain :'( I do feel very strongly that we have to honour their memory because at least they tried.
Silvilocks
Edit: Just re-read that, and although I know what I mean, I'm not sure I've made a great job of putting it into words.
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Silvilock's.
Very easily read and understood,thank you.
Goggy. ;) ;D
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Evening all
I found a photo of Jose (nee Hicken, formerly Moss) Johnston and her second husband Bob with their granddaugher Zoe taken in 1979 and added to my website if anyone is interested.
http://www.angelfire.com/ok/nzfamily/images/josie__bob_and_zoe_1979.jpg
Cheers
Sarndra
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Aghhh well that didn't seem to work from my end...so try accessing it off the page i made and the link at the bottom! Let me know if it doesn't work.
http://www.angelfire.com/ok/nzfamily/jose.html
Cheers
Sarndra