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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: Linda on Monday 26 September 05 00:07 BST (UK)
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Thomas HYAM / HYAMS married Emma Jane ROBINSON in Plumstead, Kent, 25 Oct 1890. Thomas was age 31, apparently son of Charles HYAM deceased publican.
I cannot find any info before 1890 - searched censuses / indexes, GRO births for Thomas and deaths for Charles. Wills index has been searched for Charles.
1891 census shows Thomas age 31, b: Norwich, Norfolk. I have searched 1861 census for Norwich and several other areas.
1901 census - Thomas and family evaded the enumerator!
Children of Thomas and Emma, all born in Plumstead, Kent:
Thomas William HYAM b:1891 m: Caroline E. HARVEY
Albert Edward HYAM b: 1893 m: Rose Florence GAYWOOD
Emily HYAM b: 1896 m: Frank BRANDON
Annie HYAM b: 1890
Henry HYAM b: 1901
William HYAM b: abt. 1904 m: Louise Ivy SMITH
Charles HYAM b: abt.1907 m: Annie Elizabeth Catherine BROOKS
Nancy HYAM b:??
....and probably a few more....
Is anyone else researching this family please?
Linda
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Hi Linda
As this is an old request, just wondering if you are still looking for information or whether you have made some progress?
Casalguidi :)
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Hi Linda
I am researching this family as they are direct ancestors. Where did you get the list of children for Thomas and Emma from?
Sharon
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Hi Linda
I had another look at the 1911 census record on ancestry and it lists only 6 children for Thomas and Emma:
Thomas William b. 1891
Albert Edward b. 1894
Emily b. 1896
Annie b. 1898 (not 1890)
Harry b. 1903
Charles b. 1906
No William or Nancy.
Sharon
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Sharon,
Linda did not return to this thread after casalguidi posted in 2009, so possibly she will not now.
I am guessing this is the birth she thinks is in her family:
Births Mar 1904
Hyam William Woolwich 1d 1391
When Linda posted in 2005 she will not have had access to the 1911 census, so probably was just looking for possible births in the correct area, and gave William the wrong parents.
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Sharon,
This looks like Linda's family in 1911, using the information given by her
Thomas Hyam 54
Emma Hyam 43
Albert Hyam 17
Emily Hyam 15
Annie Hyam 13
Harry Hyam 8
William Hyam 7
Charlie Hyam 5
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Hi Chempat
Well it may be possible about the William as it is a similar area, but the eldest child is Thomas William born 1891 who would be 20 on that list.
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Hello Sharon!! It has been a long time since I posted the original message but happy to find someone else looking for this elusive family! How are you related?
To clarify my info:
I have birth certificates for the following:
Thomas William b: 1892
Albert Edward b: 1893
Emily b: 1896
Annie b: 1898 (sorry about the earlier typo)
Henry b: 1902 (presumably this would be "Harry" shown in the 1911 census
I do not have birth certificates for the following but they appear to be sons of Thomas in 1911
William b: abt. 1904
Charles b: abt. 1907
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Hi Linda!
Charlie Hyam was my grandfather. I was just doing a Google search on him and something come up on GenesReunited and it has his name and birth as Charlie Hyam (not Charles).
And his birth year was 1906.
He married Annie Brooks.
Are you related to Hyam?
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Just to point out that you can now look for Hyam/Robinson births in the GRO index, as they are now showing mother's maiden name pre-1911.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp
However, free bmd has Charles as birth with Charles not Charlie (as does GRO index).
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Hi Sharon
Yes, I am the grand-daughter of Albert Edward, brother of Charles. Their father, Thomas Hyam, has been a nightmare to research. He seemingly appeared out of nowhere in 1890 upon his marriage to Emma Jane Robinson. I believe I found him by process of elimination but no documented proof. :-[
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Thank you chempat for the useful link.
I believe father of my Albert, and apparently Sharon's Charles, may actually be Cornelius Thomas Craddock Hyam, birth registered in 1855 Sept Qtr in Thetford.
Cornelius was known as Thomas in some records, his father was a publican as was father of our Thomas, and he most certainly had good reason to hide his real identity upon the marriage to Emma, if indeed this was the same person.
Thomas (Cornelius) magically disappeared in the 1880's (he was incarcerated and never reappeared, but no death record found), and "our" Thomas fell out of the sky in 1890 with no previous records found.
I realize that is not proof but have spent an insane amount of time trying to find information with the help of some very serious researchers, and eventually decided to move on to something else.
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Hi Linda
After reading your last post I dug around a bit more and although not certain, I am pretty sure that our great grandfather Thomas was not Cornelius.
Cornelius came from Brandon Suffolk and was born I think 1855 and his father was a Cornelius Hyam.
Our great grandfather Thomas was born in 1856 and as we know his father was Charles Hyam and his mother was Elizabeth nee Piggott.
Now I have found that Charles and Elizabeth lived in Middlesex for a time, and there is a Thomas Hyam birth rrecorded in 1856 in Middlesex.
See if you can find this one.
Sharon
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Hi Linda
I just found that in 1861 Charles and
Elizabeth Hyam lived in Kensal Green, Willesden, Middlesex, England.
Sharon
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Hi Sharon
How did you find the mother's name and birth year of our Thomas? Do you have his birth certificate? I looked in the GRO birth index for 1856 and found no Thomas Hyam. Was his last name spelled differently in his birth record?
In 1861 census, Charles and Elizabeth that you mention have no children with them.
I found the same Charles and Elizabeth in 1871 census, still no children with them.
Charles was a labourer in both records, not a publican.
How did you manage to connect our Thomas to this couple?
Did you find our Thomas in any census before 1891?
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I think I agree with you, Linda - in 1861 the family are in Brandon - transcribed as Hyson on FindMyPast, and Hysom on Ancestry - where Cornelius senior is Inn Keeper of the Bell Inn, Cornelius the younger listed as plain Thomas.
Cornelius Hyam, widower, Brewer, married Jane Craddock 1854 St. Geo.Han.Sq., London - he states his father as Charles Hyam, Gun Flint Maker
Cornelius senior died at Brandon in 1870.
I noted some trees have Cornelius as son of a Joseph but this is incorrect.
Familysearch shows Cornelius Higham bp.19/7/1812 Brandon, son of Charles and Susan plus siblings Hemson in 1811 and Martha Anne in 1814.
I think that Charles died young - Charles Heigham aged 23, bur.28/7/1816 Brandon which means he was very young when he married ca.1810/11 (I cannot find a marriage).
In Brandon records surname varies between Hyam, Higham, and Heigham.
So, with Cornelius dying in 1870 what happened next? In 1871 younger son Albert is lodging in Brandon, sister Agnes is working as a servant aged 13 (and not 63 as transcribed by ancestry). Can't find his widow Jane nor the 'infamous' Thomas i.e. CTC Hyam, nor can I find him in 1881. The latter married an Emily Cooke Thacker in 1878 and she dies Mar.1880 (I'm guessing due to childbirth as a son Edward Thomas Charles born Mar.1880 who died in Mar.1881) - he then remarries to a Louisa Adams in Dec.1880 and in 1881 in Brandon she is living alone. I can't find Louisa in 1891 but in 1901 she is again living alone in Newington, London, still shown as married but can't see that they had any children!!
However, as I suspect you know, Thomas Cornelius Craddock Hyam, was sentenced to 5 years on 14/2/1884 for shooting at his wife Louisa on 25/11/1883 with intent to kill. This was definitely a man with something to hide so can see why he 'reinvented himself' somewhat after his imprisonment.
I feel sure that this man and 'your' Thomas Hyam are the same person.
Annette
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Thank you for posting all the details Annette. I do have all of that information, and more, but I'm sure Sharon will find it interesting.
A few missing bits:
According to another researcher, not checked by me, Charles who married Susan was born abt. 1784, as was Susan. Perhaps the record found of his burial was mis-transcribed, he would have been closer to 33 not 23.
That same researcher has Charles and Susan with 5 children, John 1804, Charles 1806, Lewis 1807, Cornelius 1811 and Martha Ann 1814.
Prior to his marriage to Jane Craddock, Cornelius married Charity Talbot. Before the marriage she was a charity case ;D having a son John, bap 1830 with no father named. (There is documentation of communication between overseers of the poor.) Charity died 1853 in St Olave, which would explain why Cornelius marriage to Jane took place in that neighbourhood - St George Hanover Sq. 1854 although doesn't explain why Cornelius and Charity were in that area in the first place.
Jane died in 1875 in a lunatic asylum which might explain why the kids were scattered in 1871 if she was already in the asylum and Cornelius already dead.
In 1871 found a possibility for Thomas in a pub in Norwich which might explain why in 1891 census he shows Norwich as his birthplace.
I have detailed information on the prison records although nothing specifically which states when he was released, but it would certainly be before the 1890 marriage of Thomas and Emma.
I decided not to spend any more time or money researching further back, at least not until evidence comes up that shows Cornelius alive and well after 1890, or Thomas with publican Charles prior to that.
Just another note, during WWII my dad was on a train coming home on leave and met another fellow with the same name as my dad and during their discussion they realized they were related. Too bad I did not ask my dad at the time for more details. Anyway, using available online information, and without ordering any certificates or any other proof, I traced a *possibility* for that fellow back to Albert, younger brother of naughty Cornelius Thomas in Brandon. Food for thought ;)
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Hi Linda
I have just found records for Thomas Hyam born in Thetford, Norfolk in 1859 to a Charles Hyam, and also records of his father Charles Hyam born 1825 in Norfolk and his family.
They have no connection to the Cornelius Craddock family from Brandon, as all these records are from Thetford.
I don't know how to get in touch, if you have an email I could send some records to you.
Sharon
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That's wonderful news Sharon! If you could please reply with more information - the source and reference numbers will be sufficient - or more specific details, that would be great. I can get the documents, just need to know where to look. Thanks so much. :)
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Hi Sharon
I would really appreciate information that you found, as mentioned in my last post no need to email just post info here, source and reference, or specific details would be great.
Thanks!
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Hi Linda
Thomas Hyam's parents were Charles and Ellen Hyam.
Charles Hyam was born in 1825, Thetford, Norfolk.
Ellen was born in 1818, Bradfield, Berkshire.
In 1851, before Thomas's birth, they were living at 101 Hadley Green, Monken Hadley, Barnet.
Charles' occupation at that time was farm labourer.
1851 England Census
H0107/1701/183 p 26
However I cannot find them in subsequent censuses that show Thomas, despite alot of searching.
Sharon
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Thank you Sharon, I very much appreciate the information, but I do not know how you were able to connect our Thomas to this Charles and Ellen. Do you have a birth certificate for Thomas, or did you find a baptism for him? I would really appreciate if you would share those details as I was not able to find anything. Thanks.
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Hi Linda
That is why I asked you for an email to write and tell you.
I was told first hand by my grandmother, Annie Elizabeth Catherine Hyam, wife of Charles Hyam born 1906. Thomas's son.
When I was a child she told me and Mum, grandfather's name was Thomas. And then she said his parents were Charles and Ellen.
I have more to tell you but will write again later.
Sharon
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Oh I see....I would prefer not to post my email address on an open board but we could communicate through RootsChat's private messaging if you prefer.
l think that, depending upon other information that you have, proof of Thomas's birth and parentage could be a tough search, as I previously mentioned I and friends have spent a lot of time searching for him.......although you did mention that he was born in Thetford, so perhaps you already have birth info....from a parish register?
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Hi Linda
No it's ok, no need for email or private messaging, i'm not sure how to do that as I am not familiar with this site.
In response to your last email, I thought that you said Charles Hyam born 1825 came from Thetford, somewhere in one of your posts.
The couple I found show that Charles was born in Thetford.
As you say, proving Thomas's birth is a tough search. For some reason it seems like it wasn't recorded.
I just wanted to let you know that Thomas's parents were Charles and Ellen, as that was handed down to me.
It definitely wasn't Cornelius Craddock.
Sharon
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Hi Sharon
I mentioned that Cornelius Thomas Craddock Hyam's birth was registered in Thetford RD, nothing about Charles being from there. I have not found anything at all for any Charles that fits in with the little information that was on the marriage certificate of our Thomas in 1890.
Now you did follow up with .......
I have just found records for Thomas Hyam born in Thetford, Norfolk in 1859 to a Charles Hyam, and also records of his father Charles Hyam born 1825 in Norfolk and his family.
They have no connection to the Cornelius Craddock family from Brandon, as all these records are from Thetford.
I would think that there certainly could be a connection between Hyam families of Thetford and of Brandon. Although in Suffolk, Brandon was part of Thetford Registration District and the 2 places are only 7 miles apart.
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Hi Linda
I am still researching and thought I would send you a little Christmas present.
Thomas had a sister!
Sarah Ellen Hyam, born to parents Charles and Ellen Hyam, on the 15th of February, 1865, in Liverpool, Lancashire.
Father's occupation according to Lancashire Online Parish Clerk is a Coppersmith.
She was baptized in March at St. Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire.
6 records are on Ancestry, a record is at Lancashire OPC under St Peter Baptisms March 1865.
Wishing you a Merry Christmas
From Sharon
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Hello Sharon. Happy New Year.
Thank you for the latest information. I wonder how are we tying this family to Thomas? Did you find a birth registration for Thomas? Did you find anything to indicate that Charles was ever a publican? Any census info? Or anything else you might have to solve the mystery? Thanks
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Hi Linda
Happy New Year to you.
I will try and recap on what information I have so far. The reason that I know it is Charles and Ellen Hyam, is that it was handed down to me and Mum, first hand from my grandmother Annie Elizabeth Catherine Hyam, wife of Charles born 1907.
When I was about 12 years old, I was sitting with Mum and Nan. Mum asked Nan, what name was Dad's father?
Nan replied Thomas.
Mum said who was his father/parents?
Nan replied Charles and Ellen. He ran a pub.
So that was about it.
As for facts or sources or certificates...
So far I have got Charles Hyam on a census, born in 1825.
I don't have his marriage to Ellen.
I have them on the 1851 Census, living at Hadley Green, just the two no children.
I did find, while scouring, a lead, which showed the 1861 Census, and it had a Thomas Hyam, age 5, living in Norfolk, England. But because I am not a paid member I couldn't access it. I only have a subscription to Ancestry.com. I think it was after doing a search on ' The Genealogist ' website. I really wanted to access it as I thought this could be a key piece. I don't know if you are a member? I can't remember if it was that site for sure, as I have been on all of them.
Next I discovered, that Thomas Hyam had a sister, named Sarah. So as I searched, I found that her birth and baptism was in 1865 St Peyers Liverpool. That is all on Lancashire OPC. Charles is a Coppersmith.
The only pub reference I have dug up, is a Charles Higham (perhaps the name was transcribed by sound). And he was landlord of The Brunswick Tavern (or Brunswick Inn) in Liverpool, in 1870. This would tie in with Sarah Ellen (her middle name after her Mother) being born in Liverpool 1865.
But no record of how many years or other pubs he managed.
The only death record I can find for Charles is on FreeBMD under 'Male Hyam' Holborn, England, I forget the year at present.
I thought I had Thomas's birth, but not yet, my mistake. It is supposed to be in Norwich, 1856. Nor can I find Charles and Ellen's marriage.
But many of the siblings of Thomas have children that are still alive. Like Thomas William's children. Other ones, Emily's. I wonder if any of them know. I have the addresses and phone numbers of two so far, but havn't called.
Any thoughts?
Sharon
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Hi Linda
I forgot to add:
I also have an article, which shows a Thomas and Sarah Hyam in 1881, living at St Pancras, and working for an older man by the name of Noah Fitt tobacco pipe manufacturer, native of Norwich, Norfolk.
I wondered if they worked there until his death a few years later, then Thomas got work at The Royal Arsenal, thete he met and workrd with George Robinson. Was introduced to his sister, Emma Jane Robinson and the rest from 1890, as they say, is history.
Sharon
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Hi Linda
Back again. Yes, it is The Genealogist website.
If you would like, try this.
Go to The Genealogist website home page. You should see Master Search come up.
Fill in Thomas Hyam year of interest 1861.
Search.
554 results. Page 3, halfway down.
Thomas Hyam, age 5, born 1856.
Norfolk 1861 Census.
More details button, only if you have a subscription.
Sharon
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Hi Linda
The other interesting thing to note, on the Cornelius Thomas Craddock theory, is that if you go to Findmypast.com and do a search of Cornelius Hyam, you will notice that Cornelius Thomas would have had the father Cornelius Hyam 1811 - 1870, born Thetford.
Whereas Thomas's father was Charles Hyam 1825 - ?.
Sharon
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With all that, there is no proof that Thomas is son of Charles and Ellen that you found, or indeed Cornelius that I found.
We know that Cornelius was a publican, had a son that went by the name Thomas that was born around the right time, who went to jail in the 1880's and never reappeared. Perhaps the info on the marriage cert for Thomas to Emma Robinson are only half truths? He would certainly want to hide from Louisa since he was still married to her! Anyway this Thomas is the one that you mentioned, age 5 in 1861 Norfolk census, I already have that.
As for Charles and Ellen, the difficulty I'm having here is we have nothing at all to show that they had a son, let alone one named Thomas. Apart from your grandmother Annie's verbal information, where is this family in any census after 1851? Birth? Baptism?
Have you looked for Charles Higham in the Liverpool pub in 1871 census? That would be a good place to start since he was apparently there in 1870. May not be the same Charles but possible.
If you have connections to the family then why not contact them? They may be able to help.
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Sharon, what is the article you found which shows a Thomas and Sarah Hyam in 1881, living at St Pancras. Cannot find them in the 1881 census.
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Hi Sharon
I found a marriage of Charles Higham to Margaret Ainsworth:
This was on the Lancashire Online Parish Clerk web site
The marriage took place at St John, Preston, Lancashire on 23 August 1856.
Charles was a Painter.
The marriage certificate will show Charles' age and if he was a widower and this may help to determine if it is the same Charles Hyam found with wife Ellen in 1851, although I think it is unlikely the same Charles.
It would appear that Charles and Margaret might have had a son named Thomas baptised 12 April 1857. This was also on the Lancashire Online Parish Clerk web site, Source shown as LDS film 93989. Birth certificate will determine if father changed his occupation to publican.
I found a death for a Margaret Higham in Preston, 1859, age 28. There were others around this time in Lancs and of various ages but this is the most likely.
This was also on the Lancashire Online Parish Clerk web site.
The death certificate would indicate if she was the wife of Charles.
I found a marriage of a Charles Higham to an Ellen Taylor:
Our Lady & St. Nicholas & St. Anne, Liverpool, in 1861
This was in an index on www.LancashireBMD.org.uk, no other details
Again, the marriage certificate should indicate age and if he was a widower.
I also don't know if this Charles and Ellen are the parents of Sarah but it is possible since she was baptised in Liverpool in 1865.
You will note that the marriage of Charles and Ellen in Liverpool took place in 1861, so it is likely not the same couple that you found in 1851 census in Hadley Green, although could be the same Charles that was previously married to Margaret.
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Hi Linda
Thankyou for researching and sending me all those couples. You have been busy. I had seen the Ellen Taylor one before.
I have been having a break from ancestry research for a few days, as I have been working on other projects, and also found the whole Thomas Hyam search a little frustrating.
Firstly, to save you a little time, my facts that I have compiled, have the family, (Charles, Ellen and Thomas Hyam) living in Upwell, Norfolk, at least up until late 1864. So any Liverpool stats before this time probably wouldn't be this family.
They would have moved to Liverpool in late 1864 or early 1865, and the next available record is Sarah Ellen's birth and baptism, February 1865. So I have only looked for them in Liverpool after this time.
I would say that Charles and Ellen were married prior to the 1851 Census, as it records Ellen as a Hyam. Ellen was born in 1818, Bradfield, Berkshire. I can't find her birth certificate yet, but the only tips I have for her maiden name is either Barker or Berkin.
Thomas came along in 1856, Norwich, Norfolk, as we sort of know.
Maybe the move to Liverpool was to find a pub to run as there were alot of pubs there. The Brunswick Tavern, Preston, Lancashire is the only reference that comes close.
In 1881, the two children were living and working for Noah Fitt, in St. Pancras, London.
Thomas probably got work at the Royal Arsenal after this.
I know you say all this is no good without certificates. True I agree. The only thing that makes me not consider Thomas Cornelius is this:
His father was Cornelius Hyam b. 1811, not Charles as on the Marriage Certificate. Both are publicans and deceased though.
Thomas Cornelius was born in 1855. Thomas was born in 1856.
Thomas Cornelius was born in Brandon, Norfolk. Thomas was born in Norwich, Norfolk.
The Cornelius name wasn't used for any of Thomas and Emma Hyam's children, but Charles was.
Cornelius was in jail from Feb 1884 to 1889. Not lleaving amuch time upon release to meet and marry Emma Jane, living a distance away, in Plumstead, Woolwich.
Anyway, the certificates may never be found. But I know that Nan said it was Charles and Ellen, that were Charles Hyam 1907's grandparents.
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Wait! What? Now you have me a little confused.
What information do you have showing Charles, Ellen and Thomas in Upwell Norfolk until 1864? Thank you for sharing that but you have not mentioned this before.
Also you have not said which record or article you found Thomas and Sarah in 1881.
Don’t you think that the Liverpool Sarah is more likely to be the child of Charles Higham and Ellen Taylor?
Also just found today, in 1861 census we have a Charles Higham age 21, a coppersmith, living in Lancs and b: Liverpool. I highly doubt that this is the same Charles found in 1851 as b: Thetford in 1825 and an ag lab, especially now you say they were in Norfolk until 1864
Where did you find information that Ellen found in 1851 was previously known as Barker or
Berkin?
How do you know that our Thomas was born in 1856 in Norwich?
Please put me out of my misery and share the real facts. If they are assumptions then please say so and why you made those assumptions, as I have with Cornelius.
Thank you.
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Oh dear
Liverpool Sarah is not the child of Charles Higham and Ellen Taylor.
If you do your searching correctly, (I told you it is on Lancashire OPC) there is one entry for a Sarah Ellen Hyam, baptised on I think it is the 15th of February, 1865. Her parents names, I quote, are Charles Hyam ( NOT Higham) and Ellen Hyam.
They are residents of Liverpool, and Charles' occupation is a Coppersmith.
So Charles Hyam born in 1825, would be almost 40 years old.
The Hyam name is not misspelt in Sarah's Baptism entry/ record.
Linda, go to Lancashire OPC website, and find the entry. When you get the list of parishes, click St Peter's, then the year 1865. Then scroll to February. You'll see it.
I have another genealogy site that showed me an article where the two children are living in St Pancras in 1881.
These two facts I know. I wouldn't waste time keep looking for other Charles and Ellens that aren't the right couple.
Sharon
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Thank you Sharon. I was aware of the Hyam/ Higham variant in the entries.
I would appreciate if you could please share the details that you found for the happy family in Upwell up to 1864, and the 1881 article.
Thanks
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Hi Linda
Have you found the baptism entry for Satah Ellen Hyam at Lan OPC yet?
It is under Liverpool Central, St Peter, 1864-1865.
Sarah Ellen Hyam
Parents: Charles and Ellen Hyam
Baptism: 6 March 1865 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire.
Born: 15 February 1865
Abode: Naylor Street
Occupation: Coppersmith
Baptised by A J Tomlin, Curate
Register of Baptisms 1864-1865, Page 388
Entry 3104
Source: LDS Film 93892
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Yes thank you I saw it a few days ago when you first mentioned it and do realize the variant in surname.
What do you have for Charles, Ellen and Thomas in Upwell Norfolk, you mentioned a few posts ago that they were there until 1864
Thanks
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Cornelius Hyam, publican (B1814?), is listed as the father to Albert Charles Hyam, on his marriage certificate to Lizzie Bullock in 1884. Mother listed is Jane (Craddock?)... Son to Albert and Lizzie is Bert Hiram born in 1900 in Brandon Suffolk England, found Bert Jones on passenger list of ship landing in Quebec in 1904, siblings listed match and include an Agnes and Harry. Bert Jones death certificate shows born same date in England, death in 1945 in Picton, parents unknown. Could some Hyam descendants changed their surname to Jones upon emigration to Canada?