RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: Keith Sherwood on Sunday 09 October 05 11:21 BST (UK)
-
Hi, Everyone,
I've had a fascinating time recently trying to trace various journeyman blacksmiths in my family in Suffolk. I recently obtained an 1893 O.S. map for S.W.Suffolk, and most small villages had the "smithy" marked, along with the pub and the church.
I realise that the coming of the railways, and the advent of farm machinery using power other than the horse must have continually changed the importance and the preponderance of blacksmiths in villages and towns.
But in a village, say, of about 200 souls, would one smithy and blacksmith (with his workforce of how many?) have been enough for its needs - let's take the year 1841, when the first full Census was taken.
I want to get some idea of the competition for jobs in a smithy, and perhaps in essence to try and understand why my gt-gt-grandfather moved around so much in a fairly small area of Suffolk during his life, from one village to another, to be able to find employment,
Are there any really excellent, definitive books about the blacksmith's trade? End of ramble...
Keith
-
In a small village I think there would be one blacksmith with however many employees or apprentices were needed at the time. In my experience the job was often hereditary, but a son might have to move away to find work, and if times were slack there could well be a need to travel about looking for work on farms etc. For books you could try Abebooks uk, which lists second-hand books from sellers all over the country.
-
Thanks for that, Suttontrust,
I'll give Abebooks a try, though they tend to be quite expensive...I'll also have a browse through some second-hand bookshops in the area.
Keith
-
Taking Ickenham in Middlesex as an example. In the 19th century it had a population of around 400 up to the 1920s. TThe blacksmith would also be servicing around a dozen farms in the surrounding area totalling say 1500 acres.
They had one blacksmith who also seemed to have another string to his bow such as selling coal or beer in order to make a living. There were two occasions in the 19th century when a second blacksmith set up in the village and it soon settled back to one.
It really comes down to how big the village is and how much of the surrounding countryside rely on him.
David
-
My ancestors were blacksmiths and I have been to the village where they lived, its a very small village (hamlet) however there could be several large farms in the area, in this case and according to the information I have, there seems to have been one Master smith, one Smith and a Apprentice the latter always seemed to be a son, or other relation, talking mid 1800's
I suppose it was dependant on the area covered
If any help
Andrew
-
Andrew is right in that the blacksmith's work was frequently very difficult for one man to do. Thus you will find most blacksmiths had an experienced second person, by which I mean other than a raw apprentice. You will thus find ancestors who were Blacksmith's labourers or Blacksmith's strikers. If there was no-one else the wife would perform that function. The job would be split according to the skill and strength of the second person.
David
-
Thanks for all this, David and Andrew,
And I hadn't fully considered the (fairly obvious) effect of large nearby farms which of course would need their large number of working horses serviced regularly by the blacksmith - the size of the population of the hamlet/village was probably not the most important statistic...
Keith
-
Didn't the blacksmith do other work besides service the horses? I'm thinking of making farm implements etc. - anything small that was made of iron. Or am I way off the track here?
I have blacksmiths in my family tree and - within the same family - the father spent his life in the same village assisted by his youngest son. Two of the other sons became journeymen blacksmiths and travelled to various parts of the country with their families. Other sons either went into service at the 'big' house or worked on the land. One moved away and worked at an inn stabling horses. All very interesting.
If you find a good book on the subject Keith please let me know the title etc. I will do the same for you if I find one.
Maggie
-
Hi everyone
Maggiefish the blacksmith usually did all the ironwork except the horses which were shoed by farriers. I think there was little distinction back then but in current practice a farrier is only allowed to shoe horses and if a blacksmith tries to then he will be struck off the register, fined and imprisoned! My other halfs son is a trained blacksmith. The only current training college is down at Hereford, and yes there are some female blacksmiths because you do build up your right arm muscles hitting the metal and working a long day in 12 hot forges at the college. Not for the faint hearted!
Cheers
John Rowley
-
Maggie,
I don't need much of an excuse to step through the door of a second-hand bookshop, and had the time of my life in Hay-on-Wye for a few days in early August hunting for other titles. And yes, I've come across a few women listed under blacksmiths in the 19thC directories.
Hay's not a million miles from Hereford, John, as you know, and I had no idea it housed the sole remaining blacksmith's college in the country...
Keith
-
Most villages had a blacksmith, also many estates had their own blacksmith.
Those would make much of the iron work needed for the estate. The wooden gates made on the estate sawyard would need iron hinges and fastenings. Where I live the remaining wooden gates from the era when it was part of the estate, all have metal hinges, stamped with the initial of the landowner.
Apart from shoeing horses, there would also be all the agricultural implements to repair or straighten. New wearng parts to make.
He was really the forerunner of the agricultural mechanic, although today they tend to drive Ford Transits and possess mobile phones.
-
Anything that involves bending, forming or hardening and treating of metal was the blacksmith - part of my apprenticeship was a few weeks with blacksmiths the first thing I had to make were the hinges for my tool box (we had to make them not just buy them) - no drills, to put the holes in , and no "Pop" rivets, we must have the strongest toolboxes in the country. The blacksmith done almost everything.
Thing is with my ancestors some of his brothers were carpenters and joiners in the same village talk about a monoply
Andrew
-
Kmo and Andrew,
I had no idea until now that a metal hinge could have so much individual personality of its own. Being a totally impractical sort of person (putting together flatpacks is the very limit of my creativity), I just do not appreciate these little details of craftsmanship...
Although the blacksmith must run somewhere in my genes through my LINGLEY ancestors, from as late as 1890 to way back to 16thC. Suffolk, I cannot for the life of me imagine how hard and backbreaking, and surely how extremely skilful a craft it must have been; and still is, of course...
Keith
-
Watching my partners son bend a small bar into a poker point using a power hammer (instead of the striker who struck the metal on the anvil while the blacksmith turned the work) and made it look easy, ala Bruce Forsyth generation game and the italian dough making where they fling it around above their heads etc. I had a go and burnt the metal off in the forge as it was to close to the centre of the very small fire. Powere hammered it to get it square ended and to a point in a straight line and hit it with a hammer. You certainly break sweat! Not as easy as it looks.
John Rowley
-
Hi ,
Don't forget all the 'bits' that go on a working horse's harness, as well as the iron wheel rims for carts, albeit the wheelwright made the actual wheel! The smithy must also have made the odd domestic item too............pots , pans etc.
Regards,
kiwi
-
Hi
I just happened across this thread. I have a whole family of ancestors who were blacksmiths in naval dockyards, which must have provided a huge source of employment throughout the 19th century. So would the arsenals I would think.
They also seem to have travelled to where the work was. My gg Grandfather was born in Sheerness where he served his apprenticeship and worked his way up to Foreman, but then went to Portsmouth as a Master smith. His father and uncle had also been blacksmiths employed by the dockyard, and one of his sons became an engine fitter at Portsmouth.
I don't know what cross over there might have been between the rural smiths and these ones, but there was certainly no shortage of employment.
Regards, Veron
-
Strangly enough I know of a vacancy for a blacksmith, seriously it was on local radio this morning
Andrew
-
Veron,
Hadn't thought of how important blacksmiths would have been in the more industrial environment of the shipyards...
...and, Andrew, I think I shall forget my past associations with this versatile trade, and pass up the temptation to apply for that locally advertised job. I wonder whether there is a shortage of trained blacksmiths today?
I expect someone at that College in Hereford could tell us...
Keith
-
There is a shortage, the people are stuggling to fill it. Its at the local mining museum, which is another example of where you would find them, think of all the tools and things both above and below ground, and all the horses there years ago
I would love to do it but my trade is Mechanical Engineering as a Fitter and most of my experience is nuclear and even so I have been "off the tools" for so long tapping keyboards - and records management I'd not know which end of the hammer to hold, strange as it seems I love walking through workshops with the smells of oils and greases - "Rocol" and the like
I've never been up to this mining museum - I am going to have to go up there perhaps have a go again
-
Andrew,
You're obviously dying to give it a go! But where exactly is this mining museum...?
Keith
-
Haig Mining Museum Whitehaven
I wouldn't have the skills, I only spent about a month with the blacksmiths, and a bit at school, and certainly not fit enough.
A bit of a romantic thought though
Andrew
-
My 3x g grandfather John MANNERS I believe came to Australia around 1856, possibly as an apprentice blacksmith. I have not been able to confirm this but on his marriage certificate (aged 24) he states his usual occupation as a blacksmith. He went on to start his own business in Taree, NSW as an Machine and Agricultural Implement Maker
This is an add in the Manning and Hastings Advocte dated Friday January 6, 1882.
John Manners
Machine and Agricultural Implement Maker,
Taree
Has secured the assistance of a first-class Wheelwright from Sydney, and is now prepared to execute all orders for
Waggonettes, Hawkers' Waggons, Farmers' Waggons, Bullock Drays, Horse Drays, Spring Carts, and every description of Vehicle, at Sydney prices.
Material and Workmanship guaranteed, and orders completed on the shortest notion.
Wheels made for the Trade.
Later on he took his business to Sydney.
I can only imagine how many people he must have needed to work for him in Sydney, being the largest colony, and right by the Darling Harbour, where he was probably making products for shipping industry also.
I have yet to find out how long he was in the business but I do believe it was passed on to his son.
This is what makes research so interesting.
Shirley
-
Quite right, Shirley!
Suddenly coming across pieces of personal family history like that brings the whole genealogy thing brightly to life, doesn't it? Fascinating reading...
Keith
-
hi all,
thought I might add a little story on my family of blacksmiths that might answer a couple of questions.
Five brothers, all blacksmiths, left Kildwick Yorkshire in the 1850's to come to Australia. Probably because their were too many blacksmiths in the town. ;D Their father and his father were also blacksmiths.
They settled, first, in an outback town called Deniliquin, NSW.
In 1859, Joseph Simpson was accused of setting fire to a hay shed owned by a John Taylor. John Taylor had owned the local hotel and had set up a blacksmith shop in opposition to Joseph Simpson. A statement made in the newspaper goes as follows: "There's no b----- mistake, I've got a down on Taylor, and I wish he had been in the midst of the b----- flames. What does a man want to carry on a butcher's and a blacksmith's shop? Let him stick to his pulic-house".
They had a price war going on, very similar to petrol price wars of today. The newspaper article discusses the price of shoeing, so this blacksmith was obviously into the horse shoeing business. "Simpson used to charge one pound for shoeing" after the price war it was 10 shilling for saddle horse and 12 shilling for draught horse.
Adverts show that he was also a wheelright.
The case was based soley on a boot found at the fire, and fortunately for my ancestor he was finally acquitted.
The brothers scattered themselves in nearby towns, and eventually their sons took over the business. Joseph later opened up a hotel ( I guess to be in opposition to his friend 'Taylor') ;D
hope you found this interesting as well as helpful,
Margaret
-
Hi, Margaret,
What a wonderful story! There's a suspicion that in my LINGLEY family one of the blacksmith fraternity was transported to Australia for what would today be considered a fairly minor crime, but we're not exactly sure how closely connected he was to the family. No cases of arson, and incriminating evidence, though...
Keith
-
Hi
My husband's gt gt gt grandmother is Mary Lingley/Lindley dau of Thomas Lindley and Mary Deacon - all of my info about that family came off the Cosford database.. I'd be very grateful for any additional info you can give - if they worked for themselves or for someone else - if the former I thought I'd try to trace when the smithy changed hands presumably from father to son. I'm relatively new to family history but do live in Suffolk
Email (*) if you think we can help each other.
Ruth
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed, to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the PM system for exchanging personal data.
-
more on my blacksmith family, received a Will recently of a David Simpson who was a blacksmith and wheelwright at Wilcannia, NSW Australia. He died in 1901.
a summary of his tools:
2 pairs of bellow
3 anvils
1 tyre upsetting machine
stocks and dies
20 pairs of tongs
suages and punches
2 1/2 cwt assorted iron
100 feet stringy bark and jarrah
150 assorted gum felloes
100 ironbark spokes
2 sets waggon naves
paints and brushes.
enjoy ;D
-
Just catching up on this thread.
My ggggrandfather was the/a blacksmith in the centre of Reading, beside the church - which is larger than a small village, but I'm not sure how big in mid-19thC. I too am curious as to whether he was the only shop in town. It seems the work was hard, as he turned to whitesmithing, bellhanging, and, finally, ironmongering, during his career, each less physically onerous than the previous, I would think. I have the impression he was financially successful, judging by how he ended up, but that this work had taken a physical toll.