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Independent Islands => Isle of Man => Topic started by: Marged on Tuesday 30 December 03 23:13 GMT (UK)
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My great grandfather was sent from the Isle of Man to Libury Hall in Hertfordshire, where he died in 1916. I would love to find out if there are any records available in the Isle of Man?
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Dear Marged,
If you are looking for records for Knockaloe I am afraid there may be nothing available :( I have included a link to a site which will tell you a little more and an address where you may write.
http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/famhist/genealgy/intern.htm
I found a link to Libury Hall that was a German Industrial and Farm Colony ??? not sure if this is the one you are interested in ?
Hope this helps
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Hei Marged,
The Knockaloe Internment Camp ... History (http://www.iomguide.com/internment-camps/knockaloe.php) comes from the Isle of Man Guide site and then there is some more information about Internment on the Isle of Man from the Manx National Heritage site ...
Internment World Wars I and II (http://www.gov.im/mnh/heritage/library/bibliographies/internment.xml)
A picture of a half-crown note (http://www.gov.im/mnh/collections/social/wartime/camp.xml) which was issued for use in the Onchan Civilian Internment Camp during WWII
All the Best, Christopher
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See my Bibliography at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,112434.0.html . This will not likely give you anything specific about your ancestor, but will give you a lot of background info which might be helpful - and, you never know who you might run into. In particular, see Margery West, Island at War; Paul Cohn-Portheim, Time Stood Still: my Internment in England; and Walling, John. The Internment and Treatment of German Nationals during the 1st World War.
There are numerous records of interest at the National Archives in Kew. You may find something there which mentions your ancestor. I might be able to give you some clues about that if you give me some more info.
If your ancestor was of German origin, I suggest you join the Anglo-German FHS and get them to search their records for him. I know at least one person who located their ancestor immediately this way, complete with a prisoner ID number.
Finally, if all else fails, contact the International Committe of the Red Cross in Geneva. They have archives of all prisoners of war (which is what this is). I believe they charge to do the search, which can be quite involved.
If you give me his name, I will let you know if I run into it, as I am working my way through a number of sources. I am very interested in this topic in general, and in people's stories, but have not yet found a record for the person that I myself am looking for.
Can I ask you if you found a death record for him, and, if so, where you found the reference? I have not been able to figure out whether those who died in the camps are listed in the general deaths yet. thanks.
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Hi All,
My husband's ggrandfather died in the internment camp in Knockaloe in Nov 1916. I contacted the librarian at library[AT]mnh.gov.im and they were able to confirm that Johann Evers died at the camp and was buried in St Patricks cemetary on 21st Nov 1916. They advised us to contact the civil registry on the Isle of Man for the death certificate (civil[AT]registry.gov.im) (Haven't done this yet).
Johann's wife, Mary, had to apply to be renaturalised and I was able to get the documents related to this from the National Archives at Kew through their digital online service. From this we were able to find out that Johann was arrested in Liverpool in May of 1915 and was first interned at the Prisoner of War camp in Stobs (Scotland) before being transferred to Knockaloe. We know he is now buried at The German Wargrave Cemetery in Cannock Chase.
Loo, if you come across any references to Johann Evers in your research I would be most grateful for the information.
Regards
Michelle
Moderator Comment: e-mail edited, to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please replace [AT] with @
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Michelle, I have just decided to start keeping a list of real known internees, like yours. I'm going to make a Word file for myself, and I will keep the info that you have posted. If you would like to PM me contact info for yourself, then maybe one of these days when I get around to trying to assemble this, I might get in touch. Maybe eventually the story can be told from the real life experiences of relatives like yours and mine. It just seems to me that that story has not yet been told from that perspective, and that it's important. There were almost 30,000 of them, so there ought to be quite a few stories out there somewhere, but hard to find, no doubt.
You are really really lucky to have found so much information for this person. I still have nothing really on mine except that I know he was interned. I did try the source you mention some time ago, but there was nothing there for my man, and, as far as I know, my ggrandmother never bothered to get herself renaturalized; nothing at Kew, alas.
I did know that many of the internees who died and were buried at St. Patricks were eventually moved to Cannock Chase. One can find out about the ones that are there by contacting the Commonwealth War Graves Commission - they do not list these people on their site, but they do have some information and will respond to email inquiries. Nothing for my man there either!
I will certainly let you know if I run into Johann. If you know where he had come from, where he lived and what he did for a living, I will put that in my list as well, for starters. Maybe one day this will turn into a book.
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Hi Loo,
Yes, it was wonderful to find the information I have found so far, but as is always the way we still want more. We hope to join the anglo-german fhs this year and perhaps that will give us some more information.
As Johann was from Germany, I found his details on the german wargraves site. From what i remember it took a bit of time to figure out how to search as I don't have german, but I did find a site somewhere that gave advice on how to search the site.( http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=3595) If your man was german perhaps that could be of use to you.
As you are compiling a list of internees, I have another name for you, Peter Solyts is mentioned in some of the documents as an internee who was also arrested in Liverpool in May 1915, also sent to Stobs and then to Knockaloe, both he and Johann are mentioned in the letter as deceased prisoners of war so I assume Peter also died in the camp.
I will pm you with my contact details.
Best of luck with your project,
Michelle
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Thank you very much for that link, Michelle. I tried it, and I almost thought I had my man for a moment, but it turned out to be someone who was a musketier, so obviously was in active combat. Drat! I was so hopeful there for a moment, as the name is not very common.
I will keep in touch.
Do you know this other fellow at all, or just wondering about him?
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Thats a pity, I'm sure you'll find him at some point. I don't know Peter Soltys, he was mentioned in a letter from the war office to the home office asking for information on any relatives of the deceased prisoners Peter Soltys and Johann Evers. I have since found out that he died in August 1915, and is also buried at Cannock Chase. I have some family information for him, but I don't know if there is a connection between Peter and Johann before their arrest.
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Michelle, I have just been pulling together all my bits and pieces of information, which are still at an early stage.
You probably know this already, but I just found your Johann mentioned (as John, age 56) on this list of camp deaths:
http://www.lawsons.ca/burials/intern.html
Perhaps it will help you in some other search to know that he was also known as John.
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Hi Loo,
Thanks for that. In most of the records I have for him he was John Evers. I have been doing some research into his german roots and have developed the habit of calling him Johann.
I checked the link you put up, and I notice that Peter Soltys is not listed. I wonder if he died in Stobs, before he was sent to Knockaloe? I must do some more checking.
Michelle
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Just found a photo of Peter Soltys grave at Stobs on this website, http://members.aol.com/stobsmilitary/Pages/Page7/page7.htm
I was just looking again to find some general information and I spotted his name on the headstone. The details of the other prisoners mentioned makes for very sad reading.
Michelle
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This is fascinating, Michelle. I did not know about this site.
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If anyone should run into my father's name (he was 60 when I was born)..HERMAN D. BISHOP (Bischof), he was a tailor in London and told me he was imprisoned on Isle of Man. A family rumor is that he fathered a child while in London..something else to pursue...
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If anyone should run into my father's name (he was 60 when I was born)..HERMAN D. BISHOP (Bischof), he was a tailor in London and told me he was imprisoned on Isle of Man. A family rumor is that he fathered a child while in London..something else to pursue...
Would this have been during WW1 or WW2? (Isle of Man was an internment centre during both wars.)
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WWI...he was born Herman D. Bischof 1884 in Austria.
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May I point out that the graveyard is Kirk Patrick (not St Patrick's) - www.manxnotebook.com already referred to will give more history; Most of the bodies interred internees (from WW1) were transferred to the UK and the original headstones smashed - there are still some Turkish and Jewish graves intact in the yard. www.lawsons.ca has a list of all burials both for WW1 & WW2 (here the internees were held in requistioned boarding houses).
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WWI...he was born Herman D. Bischof 1884 in Austria.
I will keep an eye out for him as I continue my research. I am only able to do it from time to time, but you never know what you might run into.
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I just found out (last night) that a gt gt uncle of mine was interred on the Isle Of Man during WW2. He was running a cafe in Wales, when the entire family were turfed out at midnight.
Don't suppose anyone has come across the surname Gambetta in the course of their research?
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Not that I recall, but will keep an eye out for him.
WW2 records are much easier to locate than WW1 records, however, so you should be able to find him eventually. I do not know a lot about WW2 records, however. Perhaps you should post it separately under WW2, or look for some links here for that.
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For WW2 especially female Italians the manx Museum is building a database based on local police records - try enquiries@mnh.gov.im
Other nationalities are more poorly served in the records as these were basically kept by London (which lost them) and only incidental records kept on the Island
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That's brilliant - thanks for theat - will try it now
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I have a photograph of my grandfather Adolph Wieland taken outside what appears to be a corrugated iron building and there is a number tag 912 in the snow and the photographers name and Scotland on it.
After knowing nothing about my grandfather I have been very fortunate in finding out that he was internened at Knockaloe ww1 and later sent back to Germany. My grandmother died whilst he was interned leaving a family of eight. My mother was the youngest and as such was kept in the dark about her father.
I understand there was a camp at Stobs. Could that be where the photograph was taken?
I am the youngest of all his grandchildren and as I am now 70yrs of age I have the great satisfaction of having finally visited Germany several times and found not only his old home from where he baked and sold bread but I have also discovered living relatives who are absolutely lovely.
This year one of those relatives visited my family and I and I now feel that I have re united our German family and our English family who knew nothing of each others existence.
Germany holds many records but I have been unable to find proof of his existence in England.
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The husband of my great-aunt, Beatrice Bletsoe, was a German, they married in March 1911. I know, from my granny, that he was a internee, on the Isle Man. Onfortunaly i don't know his full name. It is suggested that his name was, Adalbert F. Roye. He survived. Was it permitted to visit your husband.
She lived not on the Isle Man, but on the main land.
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Rozy, it appears that his name was Adalbert F. ROYS, according to the index. You can order a copy of the marriage certificate, which will probably give you his father's name, and it may give you his middle name as well.. It's possible that it is misspelled on the index, and that it really was ROYE.
They married in the Brighton area.
I think that spousal visits were sometimes permitted.
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Hello. This is my first time posting and I am fascinated to find this webpage and hope I am doing this right,
I am an American, a Pilates teacher for 22 years. Joseph Pilates was interred at
Douglas during WW1 and that is where he developed his exercise method.
I am writing a book about him and I've become deeply interested in the Isle Of Man.
Is it possible I could use a copy of your photograph?
Joseph Pilates worked in the hospital, very little, of course, is known about his life there, but he did finally make it to America and his method of mind-body exercise, I
believe based on his deep survivl skills, is now done by thousands.
Yours,
Siridharma Galliano
I have a photograph of my grandfather Adolph Wieland taken outside what appears to be a corrugated iron building and there is a number tag 912 in the snow and the photographers name and Scotland on it.
After knowing nothing about my grandfather I have been very fortunate in finding out that he was internened at Knockaloe ww1 and later sent back to Germany. My grandmother died whilst he was interned leaving a family of eight. My mother was the youngest and as such was kept in the dark about her father.
I understand there was a camp at Stobs. Could that be where the photograph was taken?
I am the youngest of all his grandchildren and as I am now 70yrs of age I have the great satisfaction of having finally visited Germany several times and found not only his old home from where he baked and sold bread but I have also discovered living relatives who are absolutely lovely.
This year one of those relatives visited my family and I and I now feel that I have re united our German family and our English family who knew nothing of each others existence.
Germany holds many records but I have been unable to find proof of his existence in England.
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Thank you for your reply to my posting on the web site.
I would be happy to send you a copy of the photograph I have of my Grandfather.
I have established that it was taken at Stobs camp where he was interned befor being transferred to Knockaloe.
My family and I visited Knockaloe and stood on the site where the camp once stood. It was a strange feeling and a very emotional one to imagine all the innocent people taken away from their families living in the wooden huts. The land is now owned by the Ministry of Agriculture.
My Mother and her siblings were left without parents and I have discovered their story to be very sad indeed. It affected them for the rest of their lives and their German parentage had to be kept a sectret out of fear.
If you know of some way of letting me know your address I will send a copy of the photograph to you.
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How fabulous!
My address is:
Siri Galliano
10524 W.Pico Blvd. #218
Los Angeles, Ca 90064
USA
I hope to write a docudrama about the camp, it is really an untold story.
I have read about it from a german prisoner, two fiction books written
by Manx people, the Baily Quaker book, and the British documents,
which tell what and how much they ate, how the camps were run, etc.
Some people dies, some people killed, some went crazy, some became
enlightened. It is sad, but triumphant too.
Thank you, thank you, thank you,
SDG
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I hope to write a docudrama about the camp, it is really an untold story.
SDG
There is quite a lot written - have you contacted Manx Museum - equiries@mnh.gov.im - also my website http://www.manxnotebook.com has a bit
The Museum has many hundreds of photos mostly of Knockaloe but also of Douglas - not all people identified however
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Thank you, yes, I'm a year i nto this research. I need to go there as they
dont have the staff to duplicate anything so I am planning a visit in April.
Most records have been destroyed. I have contacted the Swiss Red Cross and
received oonfirmation from them, though, that was exciting.
Thank you, thank you.
I have read the British reports on the camp. Joe Pilates worked in the
camp hospital and the reports say they were very well equipped(how can that be) I am trying to find information on spring beds the camps had poor furnishings, but apparantly not the hospitals, which perhaps, since
located outside the barbed wire, were also used for returning injured Manx soldiers.
thank you, thank you, I've been alone in my quest and it is exciting to know other people.
Siri Galliano
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the reports say they were very well equipped(how can that be)
simply (a) they used a holiday camp - look up Cunningham's camp; (b) the Island wasn't a backwater - it catered for around 600,000 holidaymakers withina short 10 week period
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Joe Pilates was at Knockaloe, the worst of the camps.
They said he developed his method of fitness from working with
patients in the hospital, taking the springs from the bed and having
them do exercises. I find it hard to believe there were springs in beds
or cots. The British documents say most of the patients were in the
hospital for venereal disease or TB. The German prisoner who wrote
an autobiography about his time at Knockaloe says the prisoners organized
the camp activities, so I can surmise Joe Pilates either led the exercises
for the men in the morning or was part of the prisoner's police force.
it's amazing, he lived until he was 86, but never mentioned his time
in the camp, except to say he was there. Now I'm trying to find out
if his brother was also there. They were traveling and performing in
a circus in England when the war broke out and Joe Pilates was at
Lancaster the first year.
Good point about Cunningham, though, I've read all that, but maybe
the hospital in Douglas was well equipped.
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Some 200 died in the 5 years of the camp - which housed probably some 20,000 on average over 4 years - this doesn't seem to indicate poor treatment - in fact the hospital huts survived for some 50 years post end of WW1 - one was used as a Roman Catholic church - another as a the basis for holiday apartments in Peel - much of this avoidance of infection can be laid at the door of Col Madoc inspector of police who was seconded to camps and having seen the problems (and significant health risks + high death rate) in the Boer war concentration camps laid out the camp structure so as to minimize risks - when you visit the island you will gauge just how many men were held in such a relatively small space - 25,000 was about 50% of the usual Island population.
The activities did appear to be self led by the inmates - the food was it seems generally adequate tho there was a campaign in the English press that treatment should be harsher
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know that, been looking along time, here's something for you from the Brits.
The daily dietary for a prisoner of war, which up till then had been more liberal, was laid down on April 13th, 1917, to consist of—
Bread 8 ounces
Flour ¾ ,,
Salt-cured Herrings 5 ,,
Meat (fresh or frozen) on five days a week 6 ,,
Meat, preserved (tinned) on five days a week . 3 ,,
Salt-cured Codfish (or Herrings) on two days a week , 12 ,,
Margarine 1,,
Tea 3/8 ,,
or Coffee ¾ ,,
Sugar 1 ,,
Milk (condensed) 1-20th of 1 lb. tin.
Salt ½ ounces.
Pepper (black) 1.72 ,,
Oatmea1 3 ,,
Syrup or Jam 1 ,,
Split Peas or Beans or Rice 2 ,,
Fresh Vegetables 10 ,,
Each Prisoner of War employed on work was given four ounces of bread and one ounce of cheese in addition. On the 18th March, 1918, as a result of still further food shortage in the country, the above daily dietary was modified as follows:—
Bread 5 ounces.
Biscuit 3 ,,
Flour ¾ ,,
*meat (fresh or frozen) on five days a week 4 ,,
or Meat, preserved (tinned) on five days a week 3 ,,
Salt-cured Herrings, on two days a week 12 ,,
Edible Fat ½ ,,
Tea V,,
or Coffee ½ ounces.
Sugar .1 ,,
Salt ½ ,,
Pepper (black) 1/72 ,,
Oatmeal . 4 ,,
Syrup or Jam 1 ,,
Split Peas, or Beans, or Rice1 ,
Potatoes . . 20 ,,
Fresh Vegetables (other than Potatoes~. . 4 ,,
*On three days when fresh or frozen meat was issued, eight ounces of herring were issued in addition.
Each Prisoner of War employed on work received two ounces of bread, three ounces of biscuit, and one ounce of cheese in addition. In no other case was this additional food given, except on medical certificate.
SDG
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I have tried to send you the photograph of my Grandfather Adolph Wieland with this e mail. If it does not appear let me know and I will post one off to you.
How will you use the photo in your documentary. I ask out of interest. I also think the story should be told and have written a resume of the story of my Grandfather which I have retold to the local Family History Society.
Do you know the hut number of Joe Pilate?
I have the Camp number and hut number but there is still no mention of my grandfather in any documentation.
What information was the Red Cross able to give you. I have tried them but they charge so much and you are not sure if they can help or not. They do not seem to be interested.
Good Luck
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Hello. I did not get the photo.perhaps if you send it directly to my
email, which is (*). I can also reimburse you
for the cost of duplicating and mailing it.
I do not know Joe Pilates hut or prisoner number. One of my students
in Switzerland contacted the red Cross for me, we just needed his birthdate.
this is the first documented proof I have of his internment, and also, he
changed the spelling of his name, so that was interesting.
They did not give me the full information I desired, which was, when did he
leave the island, as you might know, it took a year to evacuate that many men,
and where did he go, some took whatever boat was going East, not necessarily direct to Germany.
I am using the pictures, first, as i give the lecture of Joe Pilates life, to make
the camp more real. I am only in the proposal phase of a book or docudrama,
to earn more money to research it and write it. I need to go to England and
the Isle of Man and Germany.
Happy New Year,
Siri Galliano
(*) Moderator Comment: Personal details removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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we have been trying to find out for over 90 years what happened to our greatgrand farther otto kneller WHILE HE WAS INTERNED, my grand mother was 3 months old when he was sent to a internment camp ,They worked for them selves in the slaughter and butchery trade they had shops ,houses ,which they rented out, yards,etc,crown yard and livingston yard in bilston street WOLVERHAMPTON , they also lived and travelled from wroughton wiltshire were they had other propertys,land for farming etc ,he came to the uk when he was 15 his brother fredrich was older he was 20 and working with some other germans from wurttenburg in Liverpool as a slaughterman they lived in brockfield rd west derby everton. otto was 43 when he was interned and lived until he was 99 in germany my grandmother had never seen him, we are visiting the family this year in germany
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that is such a sad story.
I dont think the prisoners were mistreated, the circumstances were terrible but not the British, they prided themselves on being gentlemen. But when the Germans did something bad to their English prisoners, the Brits would retaliate and cut rations.
Re: the 200 who died, by British reports, most men were in the hospital for
venereal disease and Tuberculosis.
The REd Cross only confirmed he was there, the spellomg of his name.
I wanted to know the date of his leaving the island and where did he go,
as not all boats went directly to Germany.
If you have a prisoner number, the National Archives at Lews has info.
otherwise they are not listed alphabetically and there are too many names.
I'm so very very interested, let you know if I make it to the Isle of Man to
visit their museum.
SDG
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I have been reading your posts with interest. Last evening I went to a talk about Leece museum in Peel which is near Knockaloe Camp now a farm. The Curator brought a small
display of exhibits including several fascinating objects created in the Camp in WW1. These included carved
bone ornaments inscribed with the name of the donor & the recipient ---a British guard & beautifully
carved wooden treasure /jewellery boxes. One had been received by a local lady, who had a guest house
on the promenade at Peel ,from a wife who had stayed often while over from England visiting her husband.
Locals were able to buy craftwork as Quakers/ Members of the Society of Friends who are of course
Pacifists would arrange sales & provision of new materials as needed. The bones came free from the kitchen
of course.
The internees put on talented entertainment in their theatre & a chaplain { Church of England }bought womens' clothing in local shops for costumes. I wonder if he took along his wife just in case of gossip or
perhaps he explained openly the need for "underthings"etc.I don't know where the Coupons came from.
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That's fabulous. I have read the book about James Baily, the Quaker who visited the camps and taught them how to build furniture. The Friends of Society were called in to give their idle hands and minds something to do,
and crime and depression changed when they started making things, earning
money, contributing something.
The mental part was the hardest, when would the war be over? what happened to their families? To do nothing made alot of them crazy.
Believe they did alot of basket weaving, getting the supplies from the Isle of Man,and provided that and furniture for countries overseas.
With extra money they could buy food.
I'm interested in the classes they set up. Did they teach English?
Handwriting? The men no doubt played the women's roles in the plays and theatres.
Did Joe Pilates teach exercise every day either before or after
they were counted?
My biggest interest now is in the hospital beds, did they have springs on them?
SDG
SDG
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re your query about beds------There are truly excellent photos of the interior of the huts in MNH library. Although completely made of wood they were spacious & in appearance like "Nightingale"
Hospital wards. 2 rows of beds[ plus lockers] facing with a good space in the middle for a few wooden tables & school sort chairs.The metal frame beds on castors would have been similar to those
in hospitals then. I can see underneath the mattresses & suspect there will have been a wire
pattern to support the mattresses with little metal horizontal springs nothing like the large vertical springs in more modern beds. By the way further to Frances' post saying the residents were well
looked after even if kept prisoners---every hut had lots of electric lights while even ' well to do' neighbours had oil lamps & candles.
re Joe Pilates There is a photo of The Sport Club members 1914---18 ---a well kitted out group
of fit gymnasts. They apparently had gymn. equipment as one unfortunate man killed himself falling off
a horizontal bar. Do you have a photo of Pilates when young---it could be compared with photo.
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wow, that's gold, thanks. worth a trip to the Isle of Man to see that photo!
Joe Pilates would have been 29-33 years old. Have later picture I'll send.
Imagine they all lost weight though, on their diets.
They would have built beds with wood provided by the Quakers,
they did have electricity, although it was all turned off at night.
Imagine the noise of all those men!
Exciting to know they built gymnastic apparatuses!
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Re beds ALL were as I described metal hospital type beds --- NO wood at all . The
cabinet makers made quite elegant furniture their leader was a superb craftsman just in the
same way the leader of the string orchestra had been playing for the King a few days before captivity, a gifted musician.
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Re: message 40..."the sport club"
This just triggered a memory..I have a photo of my father (yes,WWI..he was 60 when I was born)...in formation with a group of gymnists...from that time period...I'll have to dig it out. Don't know any details, only know he was a tailor in London (from Austria) b 1884, and spent WWI on the Isle of Man. Just found him yesterday in 1911 census, age 26.
Are there any photos available..so I can compare?
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more excitement!
would love to see that photo!
Siri Galliano
www.liveartpilates.com
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Florida June Do you have a scanner ? Is it possible to post your photo on RootsChat ???
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unfortunately...I live in 2 locations..
winter in Florida, summer in N.Carolina...
all my old photos are in NC...will need to wait till May or so.
so sorry....June
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Will try to compare the photos in summer for you. I live very close by the Manx Museum &
Library --- MNH Voirrey
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Hi - I'm new here but have read this posting with interest.
My grandfather was German, although the family professed to be Swiss not German. I knew they had done a 'moonlight flit' and tonight I think I have found out why. I think they were uprooted from Liverpool probably in 1915 following the Lusitania riots.
I found grandfather's name in the listings at the Ellis Island site in the US for September 1915, but his immigration entry had a thick black line through it and on asking I was told that this was because he never boarded the ship. I have no idea if grandfather was interned, but suspect this might have been why he never made it to America.
Others here have talked about finding their relatives were arrested, so my question is where did you find that information and did it lead you to know that your relatives ended up in the IOM?
You are right, it is an untold and forgotten story. Grandfather was only about 16/17 when he came to the UK and became an upright citizen - a master baker by trade. He did well for himself, married an English girl and had 6 children. He and his family did not deserve to be persecuted for something which was not his fault.
Grandad survived the war and returned to his family, but died in 1923 of TB, followed by his wife only six weeks later, leaving the family to fend for themselves. The youngest was born during at the end of April 1915, which would have been about the time of the Lusitania riots. He would have only been about 8 when both his parents died.
Thanks for listening - hope someone might be able to fill me in with the 'arrests' question.
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Not that I recall, but will keep an eye out for him.
WW2 records are much easier to locate than WW1 records, however, so you should be able to find him eventually. I do not know a lot about WW2 records, however. Perhaps you should post it separately under WW2, or look for some links here for that.
Hi, this is my first posting. I am keen to find out anything I can about my grandfather who was interned on The Isle of Man during WW1. He was a German with a young English family living in Eastbourne, Sussex. Named George Herman Jung, he managed to avoid being repatriated to Germany after the war though I believe he was much affected by the experience of internment. I should be grateful for advice on where to start looking for him.
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Loo Reply #3 gives all the answers. I checked with REd Cross and got the right spelling of Josef Pilates. contact them with name, date of birth or where interned. NAtional Archives you need a prisoner number as it is not listed
alphabetically and there are 30,000 names.
and, my dear research friends, is it interned or interred?
Siri Galliano
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Thanks for listening - hope someone might be able to fill me in with the 'arrests' question.
There is some description at http://www.manxnotebook.com/fulltext/sh1920/ch07.htm + the harsh life of the non-interned wives + children - it was not a pleasant period made much worse by the tabloids of the day
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I have just joined RootsChat.Com tonight and would also be interested
to learn more about the internment of Otto Kneller during WW1.
I have been researching this Kneller family for some time as part of my
One Name Study and I am in contact with other descendants of Otto
who I know would be also interested in any more details you find.
Regards. David
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Hi all on this page.
I am interested in this camp for anything about my husbands gr grandfather. I have just come over to this page on a link and find it all fascinating stuff. However it seems to me that the ones you mhave found anything about were all deceased and my husbands rel returned His name was Joseph Richard Smith but also could have been known as Richard William Zeitz which we believe to be his true German name. He was interned in both wars but in WW2 (we now have a copy of his tribunal card) which made him exempt from internment. Sadly though he still served abt 18 months getting finally released in Aug 1941; We do not know where he was during this second war but he could have been at Knockaloe as the family recall letters from Isle of Mann. WW1 was a different kettle of fish for him as he was arrested in Hull and then taken to Lofthouse park in Wakefield.
we now know he was moved from there in Oct 1918 to Knockaloe but Manx museum have nothing on either of his names.
Joseph was rleased during WW1 from Frith Hill Surrey sept 1919 we have this from Red cross in Geneva and he was registered under his chosen English name. Joseph Richard Smith; I suppose we are lucky to get as much as we have but as someone on here said it seems we always want more. best of luck in alkl your searchings and please keep up the interesting page here. All our information came from The REd Cross in Geneva and we never had to pay; The archives in London with help from German family history society and family info with certificates; Also the Wakefield Library, I will get the full address and post it later;
Eise
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KNOCKALOE was not used as an internment camp in WW2 it was by then the Dept of Agriculture headquarters & experimental farm & still is. In WW2 guest houses[boarding houses as they were called here] /
hotels in all the seaside towns were requisitioned by the military for use as "camps" where people were segregated by nationality. Women were housed in Port Erin & nearby Port St Mary & were free to move around the villages but not go out of the gated area as the locals would be able to show their ID cards.
"Island of Barbed Wire" by Connery Chappell ///Robert Hale London ISBN 0 70907754 8 is a fascinating
account of this time & includes some photos .It is I believe only £7.00
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Thank you Voirrey M.
I did not know that, thank you. We dont really know where our Joseph was when he was moved but if records are correct he was in Knockele for abt 1 yr in WW1. Family say they recall letters coming from IOM while he was away during WW2 so where would he have been do you think. The book Island of Barbed Wire sounds interesting I will get it ASAP.
Eise
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Most German aliens were held in the several camps in Douglas - along the northern section of the Prom or around Hutchinson square in North Douglas were the two main areas - see http://www.manxnotebook.com/towns/douglas/do_1910.htm + also http://www.manxnotebook.com/towns/douglas/metro.htm
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Giovvanelli was Italian & writes in the Metropole Camp description as an alien inmate speaking from
personal experience. It was opened in July 1940 & closed October 1944. It included several Italian Opera
singers who gave concerts while locals stopped outside the barbed wire to listen.
Hutchinson Square had Germans including many German born Jews & Austrians.It was a town square with
garden in the centre surrounded by yellow brick guest houses. Barbed wire enclosed the area & I could see
one of the main entry gates from my bedroom window. Guards from the Camp were lodgers at neighbouring
houses. " Living with the Wire " about WW1 & includes many photos. Editor Yvonne Cresswell , published
by Manx National Heritage ISBN 190 1106 35 6 & not expensive ---only a paperback.
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Sorry for my error the book is about WW2 as well.
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Hi,
I'd be really grateful if you could add my g.grandfather's name to the 'list' of WW1 IoM civilian internees. If anyone comes across any info with his name on it, I'd be overjoyed - like most people I'm finding it almost impossible to discover any information.
His name was Henry Cutts - he was a pork butcher by profession and had been in the UK since at least 1896. He was married to an English woman and had a very young family of 4 children. He lived in Scarborough (County of York) , Carlisle and Bishop Auckland in County Durham. Census returns show him to be a German National and also state that he was naturalised in 1904 (though the National Archives don't have any records of this, so that might have been a fib on his behalf!)
Again, very little information known about his internment - other than he was 'taken away' for several years. His family did travel to the IoM, but I don't know if they ever got through the barbed wire to actually see him.
Fingers crossed,
Bongo Ali
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Hi, I am trying to help my husband find out what happened to his grandfather who was interned in Knotsloes camp - his name was John Arthur Conrad Rolf Herold and his number was Peel 1 No 12845.
Can you hjelp us at all? Many thanks
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You are so lucky you have his prisoner number. You can contact the International Red Cross woh evacuated the prisoners, they are listed by number. And again, since you have the number the National Archives at Kew
could probably help you. Good luck.
Siri Galliano
Los Angeles
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Hi, thank you so much, will try them and let you know how I get on. Bye for now, victorsj in England
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Has anyone any information regarding my Gt Grandfather GEORGE (JORG IRRGANG ? He was an internee in Knockaloe in ww1 1915-1917.He had been interned previously in Oct1914-dec 1914 but re interned 1915 Aug in Newbury camp in Berkshire england. On his release from Knockaloe ,He was sent back to czechoslovakia ( he was born an Austrian subject) but returned to his wife and children in england . If anyone comes across any info or mention of him in there searches i would be so grateful, Kind regards to you all Paula
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Hi,i also had a family member interred during ww1 on IOM, name Jacob Langwasser, Bavarian
no luck tracing him tho
Regards
Steve.
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Hi Steve, have you any other info on your family member.? Do you know if he died in knockaloe ,as there are records of this available . If you would like i will search for your gentleman, whilst im looking for my gt grandfather and let you know .I have contacted the Red Cross in Geneva as i believe they hold some records from ww1 so heres hoping . Paula
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I do have all death cert. info . for Knockaloe but I read that post as internee being discharged.
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Hi, I see that you have all the death certs for the Knockaloe camp, I am looking for John Arthur Conrad Rolf Herold. I do have his internment reference number and the exact details re which hut etc he was in. Would you be able to help me find anything out at all? he originally was from Germany - were some of the German internees sent back to germany after the 1st World War?
Any help at all much appreciated, thanks.
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" Living With The Wire"edited by Yvonne Cresswell who works at the Manx National Heritage Museum
says page 37 The Aftermath of Internment --"-thatmost internees were unsuccessful trying to stay in the
UK after WW1. Some British wives chose to go to Germany with their husbands but many preferred
separation & frequently divorce"
ISBN 0 901106356 MNH 70 pages softback about £7 ---£ 8 ????????
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Hi all.Following his discharge from knockoloe in 1919 my ggrandfather was sent back to chechoslovakia ( despite having a British born wife) He managed to return quickly and went on to have 7 british born children . During 1938 he applied for Naturalisation .Iwas lucky enough to obtain his file from National Archives which has lots of answers but unfortunatly has given me even more questions ! The Manx Library website was really interesting, Iam just hoping whilst researching your relatives the name of George Irrgang will come up . Good Luck everyone Paula
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I am researching my grandfather's roots, who was a Jewish immigrant to the UK & who never bothered to Naturalise. His name was Louis Friedman/Freedman/Freeman & he lived in Liverpool from 1893 until he died in 1949. The family name has evolved in this order over the years.
I was surprised to find that he signed the Alien Registration book in Dublin on 28th June 1917. I've not seen the book myself & I'm considering a trip to Dublin to research the original book, which I'm told is at the National Archives in Dublin. I'm told he was staying with a Mrs Ada Levin at: 12, Saint Kevin's Parade, Dublin & he was with his wife Rosa & some of their younger children; Elias age 19, Isaac age 17, Teri, age 12, Harry age 10 & Eva age 3. His three older sons were each away fighting in WW1.
I have a few questions for anyone able to answer or give an opinion/suggestion & I would welcome & be very grateful for another point of view or expertise on this.
1. If I go to Dublin, what other information could the Alien records hold - place of origin perhaps ?
2. How often would my grandfather have signed this book, weekly ? or when he arrived in Dublin & when he left ? What was the procedure ?
3. Does anyone have any link to this "LEVIN" family from Dublin ? (see more info about this family below)
4. How was my grandfather able to remain with his family during WW1, I understood men were interned, but not woman ? This seems very relaxed ?
5. I'm wondering if my grandfather stayed in Dublin for the duration of the 1st WW. This is what I'm hoping the records will tell me. Could it be possible he was in Dublin to protect his younger sons from being called-up for war ?
I know very little about the formalities of Alien Registration during WW1 & thought the detainees were put into camps, so I'm surprised to find my grandfather staying with a family in Dublin.
Opinions & suggestions would be appreciated.
HG2
PS. I'm wondering if he was based at the Knockaloe camp, but allowed to visit Dublin for some reason, hence my post on this thread.
PPS LEVIN family: Ada or Edith Levin was the widow of Morris Levin Her maiden name was HARRIS the name Harris was originally Zorochovitz & she was born in 1877 in KARKELAN PAURA, KOVNO.
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Only 'Enemy' aliens were interned - if he was Russian (as per passport ?) then he wasn't an enemy alien.
I've not heard of any releases from Knockaloe on such grounds so suspect he was never interned and not there;
Re documents - can't you get a reply from the NA in Dublin as to the form of the records ?
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Only 'Enemy' aliens were interned - if he was Russian (as per passport ?) then he wasn't an enemy alien.
I've not heard of any releases from Knockaloe on such grounds so suspect he was never interned and not there;
Re documents - can't you get a reply from the NA in Dublin as to the form of the records ?
Hi Frances,
I have made enquiries at the National Archives at Dublin & I'm waiting for their reply. My grandfather states he was a German National on all Liverpool Censuses, but we suspect he was from somewhere in what is now Lithuania, but was maybe Prussia when he left his homeland. He was born about 1866 & first appears in Leeds where he married his 1st wife in 1890. (He was married & widowed three times)
If he signed the Dublin Alien book, then he must have been classed as an Enemy Alien. But this seems very relaxed for him to be staying with the Levin family in Dublin.
HG2
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I thought there might be an upper age limit for internees but some (not many) of the deaths at Knockaloe were of older men so if he was German then somewhat strange unless different rules applied in Ireland
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I thought there might be an upper age limit for internees but some (not many) of the deaths at Knockaloe were of older men so if he was German then somewhat strange unless different rules applied in Ireland
Yes, it does seem strange & too relaxed. I'm told that conscription started in England in January 1916, but didn't start in Ireland until early 1918. So, altho his older sons enlisted for war, maybe my grandfather tried to keep his younger sons from war for as long as possible. I can't imagine him taking his young family across the Irish sea especially after the Luci was sunk there if he didn't have good reason & maybe he thought they would be safer in Ireland.
Both Elias & Isaac died young - Elias at 21 & Isaac at 39. He also had a stepdaughter Betsy aged 10 (Rosa's daughter to her first marriage) so she is not mentioned & another stepson Abraham aged 18 to his 2nd wife - (his 1st & 2nd wives were both widows themselves) He was a remarkable man, holding onto such a large family plus stepchildren too, but he brought them all up & from having nothing he worked hard & he prospered.
HG2
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My question: how were divorces handled when the (german speaking) husband was released, but never returned to England...were their wives allowed to divorce without consent of that husband? How could they remarry if still legally married to the vanished husband? Were there special provisions in the law for this?
I just discovered my Knockaloe ancestor had been married in 1912 in London, but after being released from internment went to France, then to USA. He never mentioned a marriage to the family. I further see his wife remarried in 1931, under her married name. Did they have to wait a certain # of years to remarry?
Just wondering if this makes me "officially illegitimate", as he married my mother (while still legally married to this other woman?) in 1940 just before I was born.
June in Florida
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Hi,
I would be grateful if you would add my Great Grandfather's name to the list. He was Henry Bruns born in Germany about 1864. He had 10 children in Liverpool between 1892 and 1913, he was interned on the IOM.
Thanks
Annabel
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Hi,
i am new to this & can't work out how to post so am replying to your message in the hope that someone will see this. My grt grandfather, Otto Puhlmann, later known as George Pullman, was interned at Knockoloe camp between 1914 & 1918. I have letters from him to his daughter that tell me he was in camp 3. I have searched to see if I can find any documents that name him without success. I do have general papers relating to the camp. Otto / George was living in Brighton when war broke out. He went back to Brighton after the war and died in 1937. Can anyone out there help me to find more about his time at the camp/
Thanks,
Sue
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have you tried Manx Museum ? library@mnh.gov.im
there were some 25,000 internees - all official records were held in London and destroyed - the Museum has over the last few years been putting together a database from incidental records (eg Polic etc)
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Hi,
Thanks for your response. I haven't tried the museum yet but will now.
Sue
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Hallo, I have only just discovered this great conversation and would like to add some info in case it's of some use. Also if anyone comes across my grandfather's name I would be most delighted. The Anglo-German FHS has been very helpful and I now have the PoW No. and release date of my grandfather, Erich Heinrich Gustav JACOBS. My grandmother said that he had died in the great 'flu epidemic but I was told that the epidemic never spread into the IoM. He was released in Feb 1919, so he would have missed the flu. I shall try the Red Cross to see if I can find out what happened to him. The family is sure he survived. Grandmother re-married in 1923. The effect of his internment on the family including my mum was profound.
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my dear research friends, is it interned or interred?
Siri Galliano
So glad you asked, although I am late getting back to you.
It's INTERNED.
Interred refers to burials.
I wish everyone could get this straight, as it makes searches tedious. I'd be thrilled if a mod could possibly go through and change the references that erroneously used the word "interned" to refer to buials, as there are a lot of them!
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Hi, we are still trying to find anything at all about my husband's grandfather - we know that he was german and was interned in Knockaloe. I have heard back from the Swiss Red Cross and in spite of giving a camp personal ID number they say that they have no information about him. His surname was either Herold or he sometimes used Rolf-Herold. Does anybody have any ideas at all? - He never came back to Manchester to be with grandma - we are not sure where he could have gone to from the camp - was he put onto a ship to go somewhere?. There is no information at the cemetery at Cannock about a burial - and we think that he may have been Jewish.
This was during WW1.
Anything at all would be most gratefully received. Thanks
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That's very disappointing, that the Red Cross could not help you. The likelihood is that he was sent back to Germany. You can read about how this worked if you would look at the bibliography I posted. You will need to do some reading to educate yourself so that you will be able to think of possible ways of getting around this conundrum.
I have never found out what happened to my person either, and it's possible you will not be able to trace him.
Have you tried the Anglo-German Family History Society?
There was at least one shipload who were sent back only to have the ship sink, so that was the end of them, and I have never heard that there were any records of that shipload that survived.
Are there any other persons in England with the same surname, on the census or later BMDs? If so, I would follow them up for clues. There is also a German-English genealogical site where you can post inquries. I don't remember the name of the latter, but somenone else might. I think it is a Geram site, ending in "dot-de". I found some of my other German family through it.
There is also the Jewish Genealogical Society, which has a website. It would have information on people with this surname who may have died later, in the Holocaust, for instance, and there are names-interests lists as well.
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Thank you so much for your very informative and prompt reply. It has been very helpful. I will let you know if I come up with anything. Bye and regards
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Thank you so much for your very informative and prompt reply. It has been very helpful. I will let you know if I come up with anything. Bye and regards
You're very welcome. I hope you get somewhere.
Just for encouragement, with my other German family, who were not interned but were hard to trace, I eventually discovered that all the people with the same surname who had come to London in the late 19th century were all part of the same family (although all modern descendants denied any knowledge of this). It was because I hypothesized this link that I was eventually able to find the family in Germany, and prove it.
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I am doing some research into a Hungarian man, Oszkár János Rausch, born in Budapest on 22 May 1884 (he claimed). He lived in the UK from about 1910 under the name Oscar John Raush, and was the manager of an early film company called Selsior in London from about 1912 to 1914. Then during the First World War he was interned as an enemy alien in Knockaloe camp on the Isle of Man. His prisoner number may have been 21684, but that might be another Rausch. I cannot trace him after the First World War. I am wondering if he stayed in Britain, returned to Hungary or went somewhere else. Perhaps he worked in the film industry again? I just don't know. Would anyone have any information on him?
(I have been in touch with the Manx Museum and will also contact sources in Austria and Germany.)
Stephen Bottomore (London)
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Hello I am wondering if anyone can help me I am looking for my German born Great Great grandfather who was Rudolph Bischoff(Bishop) born around 1866. I was informed by the Red Cross that he was interned in Stobbs POW Camp May 1914 and they have no other infomation. I have read that civilians was then taken to Knockloe on the Isle of Man in 1916. I am not sure if he was one of them I have come to a dead end and have no idea what happened to him after Stobbs, not sure if he died or was put on a ship out of UK. I know he came to LIverpool from Berlin Germany and married my GG Granmother 1898 and had seven children my grandfather being one of them, My mum has only just found out that her grandfather was German as he was never spoken about by her father who was only eight years old when his father Rudolf was taken away. My mum is now 79 and is wanting to know as much about her grandfather as possible I have requested infomation from Kew Archive but have been informed that the text is not readable any infomation would be appriciated
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You must be very disappointed that neither TNA nor Red Cross could solve your problem re Bischoff.
The name rings a bell somehow, but I searched my records and couldn't find it anywhere.
There is someone here at rootschat who has posted something about someone else with the same surname, in Yorkshire - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,283590.0.html
If I were in your situation, and I was determined to solve the situation, this is what I would do:
I would read all the info I could find on the subject of WW1 internments and deportations, and see if that leads me to anything useful. See my bilbiography elsewhere on this site.
Ask the Anglo-German Family History Society to run a search for you in their records, if you have not already done this. You may need to join, and to pay a fee. You can also post inquiries in their newsletter.
I would research anyone and everyone with the same surname, at least the German spelling, who shows up in the UK in the late 19th/early 20th centuries; if not there, then I would look at other countries which received German immigrants by that name in that time period. I would be looking for clues that they may have come from the same family, and if I couldn't find that,
I would be looking for living descendants to interview. Usually more than one person would leave home, from what I can make out. This latter quest proved to be the key that unlocked my own family. If I had not done that, I would never have solved the mystery, as the clue that really worked was actually my ancestor's uncle, which I did not know he was at the time. Bear in mind that a lot of people left Germany intending to go to America or beyond, but did not get there, as they ran out of money or married in England and got stuck there; but their other family members may have gotten further.
Lastly, there is a German-English genealogy site where you can post inquiries. I have lost track of what it is called, but it is bilingual, and you can give it a shot. I believe the URL ends in .de as opposed to co.uk etc Hopefully someone else remembers what it is called. In my case, after I had pursued the course of action in my previous parragraph, I was able to identify a possible link on the German archival "auswanderer" records online, and then was able to find what looked like same person in online parish records, which gave me the ability to construct a genealogy for that one individual (although it did not include my ancestor). When this was posted on the bilingual site, we got a response right away from a close relative in Germany! You may need a little help from someone who can decipher a little German, if you cannot, in order to do these things.
Odds are that he somehow returned to Germany. It was not at all unusual for families to be broken up on this account. No one wanted to let on that they were German ancestry any time in the 20th century in Britain as far as I can figure out.
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Thank you very much for all the infomation and advice. I will look up other people with the name Bischoff hopefully i will find more infomation on my gg grandad :) I will defenaitly join as a member on the German Anglo site.
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Hi all. I have just found this site. I live very close to the cemetary on Cannock Chase and if anyone would like a photo of any of the graves of their family members please let me know and i will gladly email one to you. Contact me direct at (*).
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to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
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In reply to Florida June,
Have you gotten the marriage certificates for the 2nd marriages for both parties? It might be useful to see what they put down for marital status at the time of the second marriage. Might be a clue.
That said, I certainly have run into cases, particularly in the late 19th and early 20th centures, where people did not bother with the niceties of divorce when they relocated.
I don't know if there was some sort of marital amnesty for the spouses of the interned. There is always the possibility that they didn't know where each other were (or chose not to know), and had each other declared dead for legal purposes after a certain number of years had elapsed.
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In reference to my last post i was unaware of the no email policy and having to make 3 posts before using the pm facility. I will still help if i can and have noted annfrances message. I hope to go up this week to look and will reply either way as soon as i know. It is a very large site so may take a couple of visits. I only joined lastnight and did not read everyhing fully so my apologies for getting it wrong.
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Thank you. There is no hurry only if you have time to visit and look but if it is too big it's OK. It is a big ask i suppose, much appreciated
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.. It is a very large site so may take a couple of visits. ..
My interest is in those removed from Kirk Patrick church yard + Douglas Cems who died in the camps as the reported numbers don't quite tally with noted burials - I'd be interested if they are all together in one area or possibly seperated by nationality - if so whether easy to count graves - I havn't been to Cannock Chase myself.
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Unsure of exact numbers but there are over 2500 graves there . It is arranged in rows and blocks so i can do a few sections at a time. I have only visited once as the site is seperated with the front part being German and New zealand burials and the rest of the site is set further into the woodland. If i can catch the warden i will ask if he can help finding names.
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I have been researching family history for a friend whose Great Grandfather was an Alexander Peter Franz Koch, born about 1879, Hamburg, Germany. The family bible records that he was taken and interned on the Isle of Man in 1919 and sent back to Germany in 1919. He was never heard of again. I have found him and his family in the 1911 Census where they lived in Derbyshire.
His English wife of 15 years and four children were left without a father. I realise from reading the posts on this forum that it is unlikely any records will be found about him but it would be good to have his name added to any list of known internees on the Isle of Man.
Val
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Val, At least in this case you do know where he originally came from, which is a huge plus. Odds are that you will find him buried in Hamburg or close by, although at least one ship containing returning internees was sunk. Certainly there ought to be parish records of his birth and probably other family members, which ultimately could lead you to more people and more clues and information. I have been amazed at how much the families still in Germany know about the ones who went to England a long time ago. This is not the easiest route, as it requires use of German records, possibly hiring a German genealogist, and probably a trip to Germany, but for someone who really wants to know what happened to him, there is some reasonable chance of success. This is assuming that you cannot get anything from the International Red Cross, which should be the first place to look.
If what you want is to know more about his experience at the Isle of Man, you could ask the people that maintain the library and site there if they have any records of him. Sometimes they do.
I will add him to my list, but am not actively doing anything with it at the moment. He does not appear on any of my other lists so far.
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Thank you for your very quick reply re my email about Alexander Peter Fritz Koch. I will have to ascertain whether his great grandaughter wishes to pursue the challenge to find more about. I thought it might involve exactly what you suggested. So thank you again for your interest and input.
Val
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I would suggest that you write to the Stadt Archive ( Town Archives ) in Germany giving as much information as you have got.
If you can write in German all the better but most Germans speak very good English and I am sure you will find them very helpful.
I knew very little about my Grandfather Adolph Wieland as it had been kept a family secret for so long.
He was also interned at Knockaloe and had to leave his motherless family of eight in 1919.
I just kept on writing to whoever I could think of in Germany and eventually found where my grandfather had come from.
Eventually we were able to go to Germany and found his birthplace and the little house from where he baked and sold bread. He was a master baker.
We even went into his house and met a lady whose family had known my grandfather.
We met family who knew nothing about us and finally all ended well.
Good luck with your search.
Florence
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You can also check with the Emigration ("Auswanderer") museum in Bremerhaven . There is the chance that there will be a record of when he left Germany, which could provide you with some additional clues. I think it is searchable online but have not looked at it for quite some time, so am not sure, but the place is intended for people to be able to find information. I found one of mine listed there, although the other 6 were not, but tat one was a valuable clue.
Not all German archival authorities are friendly or helpful. The one I contacted tried to tell me my theory could not possibly be correct as to my connection with a particular person. But I persevered. She was wrong, and I was right, as it turned out. You have to persevere, as Florence has said.
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Hello all, I have enjoyed reading the thread, I am an English man from maltby Yorkshire, I joined the army straight from school and my first posting was osnabruck germany and I loved the people and culture, despite it being a garrison city in the early 90's. I later learned from my grandfather that our family history is German, the family emigrating here from kunzelsau wurtenberg in 1904. We like many German immigrants owned a butchers shop and was persecuted during ww11 for our family name reisig, despite running a soup kitchen and his son (my grandad) being in the raf our butchers was torched during the war. We changed the business name from reisig to Roberts but to our knowledge the family name was never officially changed but my father and myself have Roberts now on our birth certificates. The business went bust after the war as accounts were not paid, my grandfather refused to sell on the debts. I'm proud of my German ancestry, loved my time in Germany and have visited our ancestral roots in the kingdom of wurtenberg. I also own a BMW, lol but have a classic jag also for fun. Ironically I was in the queens lifeguards in the army, she's German too. Frau Liz. Of family http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Saxe-Coburg_and_Gotha
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In case it helps anyone, I have a list of burials from Knockaloe Camp, during WW1.
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it's fairly easy to construct one from the published list of Patrick Burials (online via www.imuseum.im) - however comparing that list (which also includes some of the guards + auxilliary workers at the camp) with a list prepared by Lutheran Pastor Hartmann prior to his departure in late 1917 it is obvious that a reasonable number of names were mis-spelled and ages at death don't always tally
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We are a Registered Charity set up to develop a Visitors Centre and Archive of all internees of Knockaloe Camp which was situated in our Village of Patrick, 100 years ago. We would be delighted to help anyone looking for information about internees and would love to add their experiences to our archive of those men who, for a short time, lived in our village. Because it takes a little time to properly research each one, please do be patient, but we value every piece of information we can find out. In turn, every piece of information allows us to gradually build a clearer picture of the experiences of the internees and their families during this time. We hope, over time, to completely rebuild the records of the camp and anyone who passed through it, and to record their family's internment story for future generations. Our E mail address is available via our website www.knockaloe.im. We would really love to hear from you!
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whilst wishing you well in trying to find a use for the old schoolrooms there is virtually nothing left to see of the camp other than the goods shed adorned by a small and now weather frayed plaque - since the farm is now commercial even access to this may well be inconvenient.
The Red Cross archive is now online (tho not sure how much info it actually holds tho it gives a list of names) - the Manx Museum is building a list of internees from various sources which should be online soon - the museum also has a large collection of photos few of which actually identify the people shown
there are histories of the camp + also several published accounts (eg see my own site - like other useful sites you don't seem to believe in refs) - I also deposited my part of the Hartmann papers in Manx Museum
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Many thanks - yes we are currently working with the Manx Museum and transcribing papers for them, and we shall be at the public meeting tomorrow at the historic Schoolrooms, following the Village and community's campaign to save the Knockaloe site from sale. I am glad to say that it should now be recognised as a historic site.
What we have found is that it means a huge amount to the internees descendants we have met and communicated with to understand more of the experience their relatives went through, and we hope to do what we can to help.
All of these men lived in our village 100 years ago, and we would like to get to know them 100 years later, and help their families do the same via www.knockaloe.im.
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Did Patrick Village even exist then ? - most is a typical Manx ribbon development along road from Peel and mostly dates I think post WW2 eg in 1881 census Glen Maye + Foxdale are villages but no Patrick Village !- no shop in 'village' (tho there was one once on corner near church - the Bishop even wanted the new church (the one that replaced the original one near the school on land donated by owner of Knockaloe moar) to be at Glen Maye.
The more serious problem is where do you expect the helpers to come from - eg IoMFHSoc library is now only open 2 short period a week, MNH is about to close the physical iMuseum leaving it an online only facility and in no way could you emulate the holdings of Manx Museum which should be first port of call for any on-Island research
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Many thanks for the questions. Let me deal with each in turn:
Firstly Patrick village. The Old Schoolrooms (which will house the Visitors Centre) and Patrick Church are the hub of the village and both played a unique role in the Knockaloe Internment Camp story. The Schoolrooms in their current form date back around 150 years, replacing the previous school, and there has been a church in Patrick Village since 1719. Yvonne Cresswell at the museum made the point about the mystery of the Patrick village population which peaked at just under 3,000 in 1851 but she has long felt the need for the story of what happened in the 1800s to halve the population. You will see on our website that we aim to do just that. But at the start of WW1 and for much of the 20th century, the village still had a shop and two churches - and about 4 pubs incredibly!
As the Knockaloe internees began to arrive, Patrick Village was full of people. If you look through the newspapers of the time, there were many stories about the pubs needing to shut at certain times and regarding the Guards use of them, the Schoolrooms themselves were used for the court hearings regarding the camp inquests into deaths and any other legal cases such as petty theft by internees etc. The Patrick Church graveyard adjacent to the Schoolrooms became known as “Camp 5”, the resting place for those internees who sadly died. Whilst the German and Austro-Hungarian internees were reinterred to Cannock Chase, the graveyard has remains “Camp 5” for two Jewish and 7 Turkish internees as well as a number of guards. The Jewish graves are well visited with the stones atop marking a visit. Only this year planning permission was granted for a flag to be erected by the Turkish Government for the Turkish internee graves.
The ribbon of houses facing the camp are interesting themselves. I believe that along here is where the Quakers were based, JT Bailey being so fundamental to the internees in developing the industrial aspects, the woodwork and craftwork (he organised the beef bones for carving and when there were insufficient on the island he actually imported them to the camp). In addition, you can still see clearly one of these houses utilises a hut in its construction.
The Schoolrooms themselves are the ideal spot for the Visitors Centre. They directly face the camp entrance and you can clearly see the four camps laid out before you as the Knockaloe land slopes gently upwards opposite. Having researched and visited Somme and Omaha Visitors Centres, the Knockaloe Visitors Centre will provide an introduction to the camp and a self guided walk will take visitors from the Schoolrooms and graveyard, up through the camp area along the route of the railway, past the walls made of the foundations of all of the huts and past the buildings which housed the butchery etc and up to the train shed which was specifically built for the camp train, a Caledonian (indeed we have been offered a 2/3 sized replica Caledonian by a Patrick resident should we wish to reinstate it) towards the administration buildings and isolation hospital. On either side are the fields which are still in the formats of Camps 1,2,3 and 4 and actually, whilst they are just fields, it is this that the descendants really want to see - where their relative actually lived. I have not yet failed to be moved by the emotion felt by the descendants in seeing where their Grandfather, or Great Grandfather’s compound would have been. Despite seeing lush green fields in front of you, you can get a real sense of how packed it would have been. We will be using technology (via smart phones and iPads) and traditional information boards to help people to visualise what it would have looked like. For the more active the walk will be circular past the tennis court and allotment areas to the far side of camp 4 to show the view of the camp from the hill towards the see the view shown on the engravings done by the internees.
For the second question see next post
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Continuing from the previous post regarding the Knockaloe Visitors Centre
In terms of the Visitors Centre Archive, we have agreed that it will link through to the Manx Museum (“imuseum”) archive and, in the same way we are currently doing via e mail, we will help people find out from the “imuseum”, the International Red Cross and other sources, including some excellent private collections, as much as possible about their family’s World War 1 internment story. It does need a fair bit of knowledge to understand what such information means in terms of telling the internment story of each internee. That aspect is time consuming but fascinating, and our volunteers will be there to help, either face to face or online .
With regard to the operational aspects of the Visitors Centre, it has been fantastic to see our village come together on this. As a team we have a huge amount of expertise to draw on. I am a Trustee of The Milntown Estate, the historic house and gardens in the North of the Island, former home to the Christian family so I am used to dealing with the responsibility of ensuring it has available staff and volunteers and is financially viable, whilst remaining true to what the Settlor wanted for the Estate, and will be using this experience for the Visitors Centre for Knockaloe. Our Board is chaired by a lawyer and former Clerk of Tynwald, it also has two Chartered Accountants, farmers, local tourist accommodation owners, a doctor to name but a few, as well as commitments of help from many others, all of this is voluntary. Indeed, the first person to approach us to offer to help man the visitors centre is herself a great granddaughter of an internee. This summer, I have a history student helping us with the archive and one of the Board's own staff members is also dedicated to assisting on this project.
It would be illogical to double up with what the Manx Museum is doing. Their resource is fabulous and we intend to continue to work with them. They fully supported the advantages of a site specific Visitors Centre. However, as a Government organisation with a public sector approach to overheads and construction, every site they have costs a phenomenal amount of money which is presumably why the “imuseum” is to close, and Knockaloe is not going to be sufficiently "mobbed" to be able to cover such costs, rather it will tend to attract those with a specific interest (although we shall be actively encouraging the schools). We shall of course encourage our visitors to visit their fabulous flagship museum in Douglas which provides an excellent explanation of internment across the island, similarly there is the independent Leece Museum in Peel, which has a superb collection of artefacts and we want to also work with them. Our "angle" is very much listening to the human stories and helping descendants fully understand their own internee's experience of World War 1, of which the Isle of Man formed one part, and, as part of this, we want to help descendants and others visualise what the rolling hills would have looked like 100 years ago, and how the families torn apart by internment would have felt, when our village became more populated than the island's capital!
It will be a lot of work for us all but we passionately believe that it is important, Our work has already started online, however the Visitors Centre will be a long process. Whilst the community has raised well over £100,000 to date, we have over twice that to go to set the exhibition up with appropriate disabled etc facilities. But this is not going to be a one off commemoration exhibition, rather a permanent, world class exhibition that gives a new purpose to the historic schoolrooms and preserves the stories of those internees for future generations. The initial Visitors Centre is just the start of the story. With the offer of a an original hut we have ideas a-plenty…
Any support anybody can give would be gratefully received – do look on our website
www.knockaloe.im for how to donate, for example by just sponsoring a bed – we have 23,000 to fill! The sooner we can get the Visitors Centre up and running, the sooner this legacy can be preserved and developed to help descendants around the globe.
Apologies for the long response, but hopefully this provides an explanation of what the registered charity is doing and why it is important, finally, 100 years later, to actually do something at Knockaloe itself to ensure it is protected for future generations. I am delighted to say the meeting last night went well. Government are looking to long lease the farm but committed to ensure that any lessee works with us so we can protect Knockaloe's WW1 heritage in a sympathetic manner.
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the 2928 persons in 1851 census were in the Parish of Patrick not the 'Village' (which is not even designated an area) - there were 18 families based on Knockaloe Moar (ie mostly farm workers) - the 'mystery' of the population is in the rise of mining in Glen Rushen from the 1840s and the fishing along the coast - the fishermen later moved to Peel (better harbour needed for the larger boats which started to dominate esp when the Mackerel fishery started in 1850s ) and the smaller mines mostly declined leaving the main site of the large Foxdale mines (hence the major growth in Foxdale Village and to a lesser extent Glen Maye) - yes obvious the import of 25000 internees and the maybe 10% more guards etc would have had a major impact on the area requiring additional shops and pubs tho with an easy walk into Peel I suspect most growth in such facilities was there - not sure where your 2 churches come from - Manx parish churches were seldom in the centre of population (other than possibly Kk Michael) and Kk Patrick was there mainly because the Radcliffe's offered the land, the school followed later and the tiny Patrick Primitive Methodist chapel only appeared in 1873 - again Glen Maye + Foxdale had 2 chapels each - I'm afraid when I see somewhat exaggerated statements being made I begin to doubt the accuracy of much else.