RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Shropshire => Topic started by: bhandley on Saturday 15 October 05 17:09 BST (UK)
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I believe one of my great grandmothers came from the public house, Hen and Chickens Ludlow.
She was Margaret Barker nee Bayliss or similar.
She was born about 1852.
Married Noah Barker born approx 1833.
Lived in Willenhall, Staffs.
Does anyone know about the history of the Hen and Chickens and/or the Bayliss family.
Barbara
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Aha!! now the Bayliss family is not what you want somebody else to provide you with the history of, but what you need is how to find it out for yourself, that's much more fun. Welcome to both Rootschat and this great hobby of ours and I'm sure you are going to enjoy yourself finding out more about your family.
I have a couple of suggestions for you since I notice you have posted a few messages in the Common Room.
Firstly that you post your enquiries such as for the Hen and Chickens in Ludlow, on the appropriate Shropshire messageboard where people who know the area will read your query and might be able to give you some history of the public house.
Secondly, I could write you a list of places to look for births, marriages, and deaths and censuses etc. but I would be duplicating the excellent postings which are on the Beginners Board here on Rootschat http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,47.0.html
All the information that you have I would make notes of them and try to put them into some sort of chronological order and then starting maybe with your grandparents, get accurate dates together from birth and marriage certificates, plus some memories of what children, siblings and parents etc. there were to try to establish a family which will appear in the 1901 census and then you can be specific in asking for a look up. That will give you much more definite details so that you can progress further backwards.
Hope this is of some help and good luck. I'm sure you are going to enjoy your searches.
Mary
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Thanks alot.
Will try what you advise.
Barbara
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Hi Barbara
I can tell you that the Hen & Chickens pub probably dated back to the late 1700’s, although it may have started life as the Horn & Trumpet. I understand that ‘last orders’ were finally called in late 1998, after which it became a B & B.
You mention that Margaret was possibly born around 1852. I’ve checked the 1861 census for surnames similar to Bayliss and although I found a few, there was no trace of a Margaret and none of them were involved in the pub trade. For a number of years around this period, the Hen & Chickens apparently took on another name; the Railway Arms. A check of the 1861 reveals that the Railway Arms is recorded as being uninhabited. Just for your information, at this time that particular part of Old Street was known as Old Gate Fee.
I’ll try and investigate the 1851 and let you know what I find. Have you any vague idea as to her parents names or even if she had any siblings?
John
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Thanks John for your comprehensive and very interesting reply.
At the moment I do not even have a vague idea of the family circumstances. Her granddaughters , my mother and her sister cannot remember anything else at he moment.
She was married to Noah and living in Willenhall in 1881 census.
Coincidentally my father's family the Han(d)leys came from around Ludlow. My father,grandfather and gg grandfather were all John!
Thanks alot again for your efforts,
Barbara
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Have just learnt from a distant relative that Margaret Bayliss may have had a sister Emma Youles.
Whether the difference in surnames is through marriage or different fathers I do not know.
Barbara
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Have been unable to trace Margaret Bayliss prior to her marriage to Noah Barker in Dec 1870 in Wolverhampton.
In 1881 census they were living at 5 Cannon St, Willenhall.
Cannot find anything for her from approx birth year 1852 till marriage.
Any suggestions?
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Do you have them in the 1871 census? and when you mention her marriage to Noah Barker do you actually have the marriage certificate? If so does it state that she was a spinster? and what was her father's name and occupation, also what age does she give since there's quite a variation between the 1871 and 1881 censuses. If you don't have it then you should get it, you might find that is the reason you can't find her earlier.
If you could post the full details of the earliest census you have, either 1881 or 1871 then I'm sure we will give it a go trying to find out something.
Mary
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What about this one?
1861
RG9/2037 11 18
Rowley Regis, Staffordshire
Rounds Hill
John Bayles, head, 44, Labourer, b. Herford Shine Walford (?)
Johannah (?), wife, 40, b. do.
John, son, 12, b. Shropshire Ludlow
Margarett, dau, 9, scholar, b. do.
Elizabeth, dau, 6, scholar, b. Staffs Tivedale
Agnes, dau, 3, scholar, b. do.
Thomas, son, 1, b. do.
Tanja :)
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I can't find her birth registration on FreeBMD but this seems to be John's (=Bayliss instead of Bayles :) too)
John Bayliss
Births June 1848
Ludlow
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Margaret may well have been claiming to be of "full age" when she married so as not to need parental consent, when in fact she was actually 19, which would fit in with the 1881 census where she says she's 29, also you state her birth to be 1852.
It all depends on the father's name and you need that from the marriage certificate but there is a possible entry in 1861 which would fit in with my age theory transcribed as Margarett Bayles.
Rounds Field, Rowley Regis, Staffordshire
John Bayles Head M 44 Labourer Herefordshire Walford
Joannah Wife M 40 " " (Joannah was transcribed, but it's doubtful, writing could say anything)
John Son Unm 12 Shropshire Ludlow
Margarett daur 9 Scholar " "
Elizabeth daur 6 " Staffordshr Fivedale
Agnes daur 3 " " "
Thomas Son 1 " "
RG9/2037 Dudley Rowley Regis Folio 11 Page 18
and in 1851 Ludlow St Lawrence - no husband at home.
Water Side
Amelia Baylis Head M 33 Salop Ludlow
Elizabeth daur 9 " "
Ann daur 5 " "
John Son 2 " "
HO107/1982 Ludlow Leintwardine Folio 281 Page 38
Of course there's no guarantees that these are the same family, the name of the wife is almost illegible in the 1861 entry and there is the possibility of a first child Elizabeth dying young and another being named after her.
There's a marriage on the IGI for John Bayliss and Amelia Russell
08 JUN 1841 Ludlow, Shropshire, England
The only child listed on the IGI for these two is Mary Ann christened 21 FEB 1846 Ludlow, Shropshire
As I say, it all depends on the father's name.
Mary
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The only info I have is the marriage of Noah Barker to Margaret Bayliss, Dec 1870 in Wolverhampton, from FreeBMD.
The only reference to her age is age 29 on 1881 census on familysearch.org.
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Thanks for the 2 last replies.
I now have more to go on.
Barbara
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I'm afraid that to get any further you are simply going to have to get the marriage certificate which you can order online at www.gro.gov.uk Without this information you aren't going to know whether the families we've found belong to your Margaret. It will also establish the age since the 1871 says she is 22.
Mary
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In case you don't have the 1871 census
16 Alma Street, Willenhall
Noah Barker Head M 37 Charter Master Stafford Wolverhampton
Margaret Wife M 22 Shropshire Ludlow
RG10/2945 Wolverhampton Willenhall Folio 70 Page 15
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In 1871, the children from 1861 family above:
RG10/2992 13 20
Rowley Regis
Hannah Bayliss, head, unm, 24, b. Hereford Leintwardine
Agnes, sister, 13, scholar, b. Rowley Regis
Thomas, brother, 11, scholar, b. do.
George, son, 5, scholar, b. do.
Regarding family in 1861: I thought the wife was something like Susannah at forst but actually think she's Johanna. First letter definitely looks like the 'J' in John.
Still no proof whatsoever that they are yours, of course.
Tanja :)
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Thanks alot Mary.
Do you know what a Charter Master was?
I would have assumed it was to do with boats, but there are not any in Willenhall.
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I don't know for sure whether this would be the right occupation but maybe
Chartmaster Negotiated mining contracts and supplied the labour
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Thanks . That would make sense as there was alot of mining in Staffs.
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:-[I would like to thank everyone for their input which was a big help and correct. Do not know where the last ten years went! Sorry for delay in replying. ;D