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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Westmorland => Topic started by: Gigi on Wednesday 19 October 05 12:23 BST (UK)
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Hello All,
My brick wall at the moment is trying to find out where my ggg grandfather Richard Johnson was born. He died before 1841, so have no census help. There's nothing on the IGI for him except his marriage in Shap in 1814. I've searched the Shap PRs for his baptism & couldn't find him. I have found other possiblities in other parishes but have nothing to link the entry to my Richard Johnson. I cannot be sure that I have found the correct one. I have his burial record from the Crosby Ravensworth PRs: 23 MAY 1836 aged 50. This means he was born in 1786.
It was suggested to me to try and look at documents in the parish chest of Crosby Ravensworth where he worked as a blacksmith. Unfortunately, no such parish chest exists so am back to square one!
I have contacted Kendal Records office to see if there exists any apprenticeship records for blacksmiths in Shap & Crosby Ravensworth, but unfortunately there is nothing!!!
I have also looked at the witnesses of his marriage to see if they were possibly his siblings but the entry was most unhelpful: Witnesses:- John Mounsey, James Farrer. James Farrer is the Parish Clerk and witnesses most of the weddings at that time. John Mounsey appears to be his understudy, as he becomes clerk a year or so later.
I had thought of the naming pattern. A Richard Johnson I have found in the 1787 census of Westmorland living in Hilton, who I believe is the most likely candidate, has a father called Thomas. My Richard named his eldest son Thomas so that fits the pattern. He also has a son Ralph and my possible Richard's grandfather was Ralph Johnson.
I haven't looked into wills, maybe I should investigate?
Do any of you experts have any more ideas???
In hope, Gillian
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Gillian
Is one of your sources for Richard Johnson the 1829 P&W directory? He is listed there and I notice that there is also a William Johnson (blacksmith) in Reagill.
There are no Johnson heads of household on the 1811 CR census.
CR parish records:
Robert Johnson of Flass, Barnskew died in 1722 (children born 1707, 1711, 1719)
Sarah Johnstone wife of William of Haberwain died 1760
Jane Johnstone married 1784
Mary Johnstone/Jonson married 1786 and having children 1787 to 1794 in CR
There are several burials of Johnstone children in CR between 1820 and 1827. I can give you more details (from transcript only) if you are interested. The original parish registers might give more information.
Have you looked at monumental inscriptions for Shap? I've looked for CR and there do not appear to be any relevant ones.
There is a record of a Richard Johnson age thirteen and a half being apprenticed to William and John Jackson, weavers until the age of twenty and one half years. This was in 1825 in CR. I wonder if he might be a cousin of your Richard?
I think your name linkages look promising.
Have you looked at the Askham parish registers as well? Does Richard's wife provide any clues?
Sorry I can't suggest anything very useful.
Deborah
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Hi Deborah,
Thanks for your reply. I had seen the Richard Johnson blacksmith in the 1829 P&W and he is definately my Richard. I hadn't seen the one in Reagill. The possible Richard from the 1787 census had a younger brother William b1793 so this could possibly be him? There is an uncle William as well b 1766 but would have been 63 yrs old in 1829 so maybe a bit too old?
Shap momumental inscriptions there is only:
JOHNSTONE.
(N). In m. Hannah, da. of William Garnett and Agnes Johnstone who d. June
23rd 1840 aged 11 m. Also of Thomas their grand-son who d. June 10th 1846
Aged 1 y. and 8 m. also William Garnett Johnstone who d. at Shap October
18th 1871 aged 78 y. also of his wife Agnes Johnstone who d. at Shap on the
16 June 1873 aged 80y.
Richard's wife was Elizabeth Farrer b1792 Warcop but must have been living in Shap at the time of her marriage to Richard.
I have since spoken to Kendal Records office and they said that the Richard Johnson from the 1787 census was baptised AUG 1784. This info is not on the IGI. They also said that there are very few settlement & apprenticeship records for the parishes of interest & they found no reference to a Richard Johnson.
I think that maybe if Thomas Johnson, possible father of Richard, left a will there may be clues there!
I will not be beaten!!!
Thanks for your help,
Gillian
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Are you still looking for information on Richard Johnson of Crosby Ravensworth? I have details that might be for the same Richard. My interests are Johnson of Crosby Ravensworth, Dufton Appleby & Brough
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Hello Leicslass,
I am indeed still looking for any Richard Johnson, blacksmith of Crosby Ravensworth, info. I have reached a brick wall as I cannot find out his place of birth!! Any info would be gratefully appreciated!
Gillian
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HI Gillian,
Here's what I have;
Richard Johnson B 1789, Appleby. Died May 23 1836 Crosby Ravensworth.
Parents: Thomas B May 27 1755 - ? Stonemason.
Mary Allon B.? - D: Mar 17, 1809, Coupland, West.
Siblings: Ann ?
Ralph?
Thomas 1782
William 1788
George 1789
John 1791
William 1793
Married: Elizabeth ? B: 1790, Warcrop D: Feb 28 1872. No date for marriage yet.
Children: Mary 1814
Thomas 1817
John 1819
Richard 1822
Sarah 1825
Christopher 1827
Ralph 1829
I am decended from Richard's brother, George (1789) Several of their children have the same names and are close in ages, so I've often chased Richard's thinking they were Georges. In fact I just got the marriage certificate for John 1819, only to find his father was Richard and not George.
Let me know if this information is useful. I have so many Johnsons, let me know if you need more.
Good Luck,
Dee
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hello gigi, leicslass, and all,
i am related to William Johnson, who was born in Crosby Ravensworth in 1833. Would you be able to point me in the direction of his father? I know that there were two or more Williams who might be candidates, but don't have access to the relevant records to narrow the search.
any help would be much appreciated,
thanks.
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Hi Winby,
Welcome to Rootschat!!!
Was your William a teacher who lived in Chester?
If so his parents were Richard Johnson (blacksmith) & Elizabeth Farrer.
There is also a William Johnson bap 21 May 1827 Crosby Ravensworth son of George Johnson & Margaret Fothergill. William & William were cousins. Their fathers, Richard & George, were brothers.
Regards,
Gillian
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Hello Gillian,
This is most helpful - thank you so much. My William Johnson (b. c1833) was indeed a schoolmaster in Chester, and was married first to Mary Musselwhite (1856-1859), then after her death to Sarah Beswick. It is from the latter union that our family is descended.
If I understand the sequence described in your and the other postings, William (1833) was a fairly late son of Richard and Elizabeth Farrer, and his grandfather was Thomas (stonemason) and Mary Allon. Have I got that right? In which case, I wonder if you had been able to go back any further and find out the father of Thomas?
In any case, thank you so much for your help - this website is an amazing instrument, especially for us novices!
Philip
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Hello Philip,
Glad to help!!
I have a lot of info about your Chester Johnson branch.
From which son/daughter of William & Sarah are you descended? I have a number of photos of the family. Send me a personal message thro' Rootschat with your email address so that I can send them to you. The files are too large to upload here.
Richard Johnson's parents were Thomas Johnson & Mary Allon who lived in Hilton near Appleby.
Thomas' parents were Ralph Johnson & Eleanor Bow who lived in Dufton.
Best regards,
Gillian
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Hello Gigi
I have just registered with Roots chat and see an old thread you laid regarding Johnsons of Hilton.
I have a brick wall - I am trying to link a Thomas Johnson (Jonston) who married a Frances Hodgson in Penrith 1805. The date of 1772 and the name of Ralph could link with the data you have collated for a Thomas Johnson b1772 Hilton Appleby).
Thomas & Frances's daughter Mary (b1807 Penrith) went on to marry a Thomas Eland (b1809 Penrith)
I would be interested in any information
Bob
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Hi Bob,
Welcome to Rootschat!
I have a Thomas Johnson bap 1782 St Michael's Appleby son of Thomas Johnson & Mary Allon. The family are in the 1787 census of Westmorland living in Hilton. Thomas the father is a mason.
I do not have any marriage for the son Thomas.
How do you link to the name Ralph? Thomas senior's father was Ralph Johnson of Dufton.
Regards,
Gillian
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Hello Gillian
Thank you for getting back to me.
I am trying to trace back from a Mary Johnson (or Johnston) born 1807/08 Penrith daughter of Thomas Johnson and Frances Hodgson who married Penrith 1805. A Ralph Johnston was whitness at this marriage (possibly Uncle or brother).
Ralph being a less common name I reseached for Ralph in Cumberland and Westmorland and established similar info to that you quote by studying the published 1787 census and IGI. I have not been able to catagorically link to Thomas 1782 of Hilton but other later events do give strong possibilities.
Frances died 1814 and In 1816 Thomas remarried to Ann Pattinson (1851 census confirms her birthplace as Appleby) she had recently been widowed and like Thomas had young children. My thinking here is that they new each other from their younger days in Appleby.
Mary (1808) went on to marry a Thomas Eland (my paternal line) in Appleby 1829. Thinking of name convention of that era. Their first child was named Joseph after his father. The second was named Thomas after her father. The third was named Isaac after his grandfather. The fourth was named Ralph possibly after her grandfather.
Have you by chance got your tree published on on Genes Reunited ?
From what you have indicated unfortunately your own research has not included Thomas (1782) - I would be interested in anything which either confirms my calculated guess or knocks the theory on the head.
Regards
Bob
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Hi Bob,
Yes the first name Ralph is a good one to follow! I didn't know that a Ralph Johnson was witness to Thomas' Wedding. This would suggest a definate link to my Johnson family along with the naming of a child later on. Ralph junior would have been named after his paternal great grandfather as his father & paternal grandfather were both called Thomas.
Is your Thomas in the 1851 census? If so where was he born? My Richard & his brother George both died before the census so I got no help there!
There is an interesting burial record in familysearch:
Mary Johnson 4/11/1842 Westmorland. Which is backed up by freebemd: Death 1842 Dec East Ward v25 p300.
Looking at the Westmorland census, I found a Mary Johnson living alone at Appleby Alms houses aged 80 in 1841. No family with her unfortunately. I cannot find Thomas' death, her husband.
My tree is on Genes Reunited. We may have been in contact before?
Regards,
Gillian
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Hello Gillian
Unfortunately I have no reference to Thomas (1782) after birth of children in second marriage 1818.
He was not with his second wife in Penrith in 1841. So unless he did a runner I assume he died between 1818 & 1841 - I don't think his second wife would have had him buried with his first wife at St Andrews Penrith. Also he was not present at his daughters wedding 1829 so maybe he was dead by then.
At one stage I thought maybe Thomas 1755 had remarried in Frances Hodgson in 1805 but in the record of Thomas's marriage to Ann Pattinson in 1816 he is quoted as being a Tailor not a mason. (clutching at straws or what).
If you are Gillian McK---- I can open a link on Genes Reunited and give you access to my tree.
Regards
Bob
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Hi Bob,
Yes that is me Gillian McK.
My tree doesn't have much detail on it in GR.
I'll send a personnal message with my email address so that you can email me and I'll send some info I have & also some about George Johnson, the brother from another researcher.
Regards,
Gillian
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Not to thro spanners, but the Constables census for 1787 gives a Ralph in both Hilton and Dufton ??? both children
Ralph (variuos spellings) is a family name earliest 1627 and he was father of Elizabeth and Margaret in 1628
Ralph baptised 1724 is the son of John
1777 Ralph is in the window tax list for Dufton
1627 Ralph marries Annas Hodgson
These are all Johnson
I have no Ralphs spelling the surname anyother way
regards
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Sorry back again
St lawrence Appleby 1816 Thomas Burried Tombstone as him from Colby
If this is your man he left a will which can be found in Carlisle Archives
Back tracking a little there is a Thomas in 1790 who was a Corset Maker living in Appleby
The Johnson, Johnston,& Johnstone History in the Appleby Area goes back to 1580
regards
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Hi Westmorland,
Both Ralph Johnsons from Hilton & Dufton are in my tree. In Dufton Eleanor Johnson widow the head of the family was married to another Ralph Johnson. This Ralph is the one in the 1777 Dufton window tax. I believe his father was John Johnson. That's as far back as I get.
The death of Thomas is still a mystery. I'll look into the death you have found, thanks.
Regards,
Gillian
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Greetings Gigi
Looking for John Johnson gives these possibles
1724 father of Ralph
1787 father of Thomas John deceased
1787 Eleanor is a widow in the constables census
1785 John Johnson is involved in the quarter sestions WQ/SR/470/22 this was found in the national archives but the record is at Kendal
There is also a will for John Johnson 1774 these can be found at Carlisle
John Johnson as a name goes back to 1576
regards
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Hi
Yes the 1724 baptism for Ralph, father John, in St Michael's Appleby is the strongest match I think.
There's a burial for a John of Hilton in 1763 St Michael's Appleby. Could be him.
Where does the John with a will date 1774 come from?
Do you have lists of Westmorland wills?
Thanks
Gillian
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Hi G
John with the will 1774
Carlisle Record Office his will is in there
regards
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Hi all,
I am really new to this game - I have just found this website and also LostCousins where I could see that Gillian and I have rellies in common. Now I have read the three pages in this thread, I think we are related! Yay!
This research is not mine but my great grand father's - it was his passion until he died in 1972.
His grand father was Richard Johnson (b. Crosby Ravensworth 1822), married to Jane Eliza Taylor (b. Whitchurch 1835). He was a school teacher and Head Master.
His father, also Richard Johnson, wrote the names of 7 children in the family bible (which was owned by my ggf, although I don't know where it is now). These names very nearly match up with those given earlier in the thread: Mary, Thomas, John, Richard, Sarah, Ralph and William (with their full dates of birth). Old Rd. drew his and his wife's initials in the bible, RJ & EJ. My ggf wrote in his research book: "The RJ & EJ refer to Richard and Elizabeth Johnson, parents of the seven children given. Why did not he (old Rd) give their full names, wife's maiden name (I believe it was Farrar - hence Frederick Farrar for mother's brother) place and date of marriage?"
He adds some information about Richard (b. 1822) and his brother William (b. 1832) including their time at Chester Teacher Training College and personal comments about William as he met him! His information matches up with information earlier in the thread regarding the names of his 2 wives. I have newspaper cuttings, including William's obituary.
It would be great to hear from you.
Victoria
Merry Christmas
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Hi Victoria,
Thanks for your very interesting message & welcome to Rootschat!!
Yes we are indeed related!
I have come on quite a bit in my Johnson research since I first posted about the Johnsons. I have a detailed family tree going back further than Richard Johnson & Elizabeth Farrer. I am also in contact with other descendants, mainly from my side ie descended from Thomas Johnson eldest son of Richard, but also descendants of William the youngest son of Richard & George brother of Richard.
My mother talks of the Johnsons of Balne. I think that they visited each other fairly often. Frederick Farrar lived in Crosby Ravensworth for a while were the Johnsons came from. He is buried there I think. My mother's Great Aunt Hannah used to travel about a bit and often went to Balne. She was very close to her cousin Elizabeth Johnson who became Elizabeth Goulden.
Interesting to hear that there is a family bible somewhere. I have never heard of this before. It would be interesting to try and find out who has it! What were the children's names written in the bible by Richard senior? I have never been able to find out much more than a baptism for the daughter Sarah. I would love to have their dates of birth.
I will send you a personnel message with my email address so that we can exchange documents & info.
Best regards & season's greetings!
Gillian