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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Kilkenny => Topic started by: Silverhawk on Saturday 22 October 05 18:02 BST (UK)
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My great-grandfather John Hetherington married Kate Regan in August 1892 at Castlecomer. No ages are given on the marriage record I have, so I don't know how old he was. I have a handwritten slip of paper though (with "Parochial House, Castlecomer" typed in the top corner) giving the baptism of a John Hetherington in March 1860, parents John Hetherington and Margaret Carney.
The above slip is dated 1924, so I don't know how accurate it can be 64 years after the fact, but assuming this John is the same John who married Kate, does anyone have any other info on this family? I'd love to be able to flesh out this branch of my tree as it's looking rather barren at the moment.
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My father was Joseph P. Hetherington born 1930 son of Micheal J.Hetherington born Castlecomer November1899 his father was John Hetherington married Kate Maiden name (Regan) both died in Low walker Newcastle 1937.
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Silverhawk- sounds as though the church baptismal record was a document needed to prove his age for pension entitlement as their were no birth certificates before 1864 and by 1924 many earlier census records were destroyed.
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My father was Joseph P. Hetherington born 1930 son of Micheal J.Hetherington born Castlecomer November1899 his father was John Hetherington married Kate Maiden name (Regan) both died in Low walker Newcastle 1937.
That's spot-on with the research I've done in the last three years. I'm grandson of Michael's sister, Margaret (or Peggy as she was known), so that makes us second cousins :)
I remember contacting someone on the Hetherington branch one christmas a few years ago, but I lost the phone number. Apparently there were two siblings I never knew about?
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I am coming to this thread a bit late in the day, I know, but I'm hoping Silverhawk and Mad Mick are still active. I am researching my wife's side of the family. She is a Hetherington from Castlecomer. In going through as many Castlecomer Hetherington records as I could find, I came across the family of John Hetherington and Margaret Carney/Kearney. Among the sponsors of some of their children were George, John and Winifred Hetherington. I'm reasonably sure that George is my wife's great, great grandfather and that John and Winifred were his children. (George's wife was Bridget O'Dea). If I am right, the John who married Margaret Carney could have been George's brother. This is obviously guesswork but I'm wondering if Silverhawk or Mad Mick have any information that would throw any light?
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Hi guys,
you probably have all this stuff already but sure I'll post it anyway just incase
This is John Hetherington and Kate Regan in the 1901 census
hetherington / regan castlecomer 1901 (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Kilkenny/Castlecomer/Kilkenny_Street/1459785/)
The free index on ifhf is showing 9 baptisms between 1852 and 1868 to John Hetherington and Margaret Carney
'dermo'
the marriage of George and Bridget is also on ifhf - have you gotten this transcription to see waht his father's names was ?
Tara
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This is John Hetherington and Kate Regan in the 1901 census
hetherington / regan castlecomer 1901 (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Kilkenny/Castlecomer/Kilkenny_Street/1459785/)
The free index on ifhf is showing 9 baptisms between 1852 and 1868 to John Hetherington and Margaret Carney
I found the 1901 census page of John and Kate's family a little while ago, but have no clue about this IFHF thing. Where would I go for this information, please?
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ifhf is a pay per view site that has old transcriptions of Irish church records
ifhf site (http://www.rootsireland.ie/)
Tara
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Thank you for that :) I just did a search though and only got 8 matches. Who was the 9th? Also for some reason the search page displayed the name "Hetherton". Is that a typo by the site?
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I, too, found the 1901 census record for John and Kate.
Like Silverhawk, I found 8 baptismal records for their children - from Martin in 1852 to Richard in 1863. I also found a baptismal record for Anne Hetherton with father John and mother Anne Kearney. Is that the 9th you found Tara?
Re the marriage record for George and Bridget, unfortunately there are no parent names. I know from a family source that George's parents were William Hetherington and Frances Stephenson.
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Can anyone find John and Margaret's marriage? I'm struggling ???
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Hi 'Dermo'
Yes that was the 9th record. With a rare surname like Hetherington and a match to the surname of Kearney I have presumed that it's the same family. Margaret's christian name MAY have been mistranscribed ???
Hi 'Silverhawk'
No, I couldn't find the marriage either. That's not to say it's not there and maybe was mistranscribed. When dealing with such old church records, that are very feint and sometimes in Latin, errors I'm sure have been made !
Tara
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Are you related at all, Tara?
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I had no luck finding the marriage of John and Margaret either. As far as I can see, IFHF has no record of a John Hetherington/Margaret Kearney marriage among any of its county centres. I have the record of the marriage of John Hetherington and Kate Regan on 18 Aug 1892. Civil record shows her father's name as "Patrick Regan, living". John's father John was deceased.
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No, I'm not related at all. I just help people with their tree's on this forum !
Tara
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I've just found a record on Ancestry which may possibly be the remarriage of Margaret at some point after John's death. There's a listing for Castlecomer 1874 (volume 18, page 385) which has a Margaret Kearny and Margaret Hetherington on the same page. Seems coincidental. I might order it and see what it says.
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Hi Silverhawk
I can save you some trouble. I got the civil cert. It shows the marriage of "Margaret Heatherington otherwise Kearney" to Patrick O'Brien on 6 October 1874 in the Roman catholic Chapel of Castlecomer. His age is given as 33. No age for her - the entry just says "full age". Her father's name is listed as Martin Kearney, profession labourer. Patrick O'Brien's father was also Patrick O'Brien and also a labourer. Patrick signed his name "Pat Brine". Margaret signed with her mark. She evidently couldn't write. Witnesses were E O'Shea (initial only) and Margaret McGrath (she also signed with her mark).
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Interesting. With that combination of names then, it would suggest that's our Margaret. Does the certificate mention her status being widowed on marriage? Have you managed to trace Margaret's death or possibly a 1901 Census entry?
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I should have mentioned, Margaret is listed as a widow in the 1874 marriage cert so we can be reasonably certain she had been John Hetherington's wife.
I haven't searched for a death record. There are a number of Margaret O'Briens/Briens in Kilkenny in the 1901 census and a few with husband Patrick. The problem is that there is no way to be sure if any of them is the right one. Given that Margaret had her first child with John Hetherington, that we know of, in 1852 she must have been in her sixties, at least, in 1901. Patrick was younger and , at 33 in 1874, would have been 59 or 60 in 1901. None of the Margaret & Patrick O'Brien combos in 1901 quite fit that profile.
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I can't see any children born to this couple either.
Going on the details that you guys have it appears that she was in her mid 40's when she married Patrick, so while not unheard of it looks unlikely that she had children with him.
They could have left Kilkenny, but again with such common names this is nearly impossible to work out.
Tara
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I've found the following in the Irish death indexes.
John Hetherington
Age 37 / Castlecomer / 1864 / Vol 8, Page 363
Margaret Brien
Age 72 / Castlecomer / Jul-Sep 1900 / Vol 3, Page 274
That would make them both born in the late 1820s. What do you think?
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With a rare surname like Hetherington I would say the John would be very likely.
As to the Margaret Brien, I wouldn't like to hazard a guess. It depends on how much you want to know I suppose.
I have sometimes gambled the 4 euro to purchase a cert on what I wasn't sure was the right person or not and sometimes I hit the jackpot. For that again, I also have purchased a LOT of incorrect certs....so again it depends on how much you would really want that cert.
Please bear in mind that death certs sometimes don't contain a lot of information on them as it depended on the person who registered the death and what the knew of the person.
You usually get the place they resided at the time of death (sometimes this may just be a hospital, it should have the person's address too but not always), what they died of and who registered the death. Also an occupation if applicable.
Tara
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John's death in 1864 is possible. The last child we definitely know was his and Margaret Kearney's was Richard, born 10 July 1863. However, if Anne born 4 February 1865 was the child of John and Margaret rather than John and Anne Kearney, as it is recorded, then there is uncertainty. There was at least one other John around Castlecomer at the time. He was married to Mary Curry and they had a son John in April 1850. John was a common name among the Hetheringtons. Unfortunately, the IFHF Kilkenny records have no baptismal records for Johns in the 1820s - indeed, none before 1840 that I can find.
Margaret Brien at 72 in 1900 could be the correct person. At the least, it would explain the absence in the 1901 census. The record implies birth in 1827 or 1828. IFHF has baptismal records for three Margaret Carneys in the 1820s - in 1822, 1827 and 1829. The latter two look like good possibilities. I haven't checked them but, if either had a father named Martin, it would tie it up. Birth in 1827 or 1829 would mean Margaret was a good deal older than Patrick O'Brien when she married him in 1874 - 45 or 47 versus his 33, a big but not impossible age gap.
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For Margaret's death certificate, the informant may be useful if it's a Hetherington relative. It would help tie her in for definite.
I'll order copies of the two death certs this week and update the thread when I receive them :)
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I've checked IFHF Kilkenny again. The Margaret Carney baptised in 1827 was the daughter of Edmund Carney while Margaret born in 1929 had a father named Thomas. If the age on the Margaret Brien death cert is correct then, even if she were a Carney, it doesn't seem as if she was the wife of John Hetherington and Patrick O'Brien, unfortunately.
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Hi,
I am also coming to this thread late.
I am a Hetherington from Castlecomer and directly descended from George that married Bridget O'Dea. George & Bridget had 11 children: John 25/12/1840, Winnie 3/3/1843, Edward 13/7/1845 (my great grandfather, Fanny 27/6/1848, Henry 21/4/1850, Anne 10/4/1852, George 14/5/1854, Ann 13/5/1856, Mary 22/6/1858, Bridget 17/8/1860 and James 4/11/1863).
George's father was William Hetherington who married Fanny Stephenson. That's as far back as we have managed to go so far on our tree which we have collated in Ancestry.Com.
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Hi Ger Heth
I've sent you a personal message.
Dermo
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New members of RootsChat usually require at least three posts before they have full access to the personal message system, so Ger Heth may require a few more posts before being able to receive or send messages.
Leinster Moderator
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I am a Hetherington, Born and Raised. I am the Great Great Grandson of John Hetherington and Kate Regan. Heard of a Martin P. Hetherington , he's my great-Grandfather I know he is from Walker, Newcastle Upon Tyne and has a fair bunch of siblings. I thinks there's a 3 Irish born Mary, Patrick and Michael and the rest Kate, Elizabeth, Annie, James and Margaret or Peggy as she is know from Walker.
My family tree
John H + Margaret Kearny Patrick Regan + Anne Comerford Kilkenny, Ireland
John H + Kate Regan Castle comer
Martin P H + Dorothy Oman Walker
Brian H + Norma Mitford Walker
Graeme H + Lesley J Robertson Scotland
Cameron H Scotland
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Hi Cameron,
I did quite a bit of research a couple of years back to try and connect John & Kate Hetherington to my side of the Hetherington family in Castlecomer. I haven't managed to make the connection yet. It's possible that George Hetherington my Great Great Grandfather (b 1817) was the brother of John Hetherington (b 1827) who married Margaret Kearney. John's trade was a plasterer according to his death certificate. Almost all of the male Hetheringtons on my side of the family were plasterers. So the connection is possible but not yet confirmed.
Regards,
Ger Hetheriongton
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There are Hetherington families in Mountrath Co Laois.
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Just noticed this has been posted in again. Hi Cameron, good to see another relative, your dad and I are second-cousins. If you get back online again, I can give you some more info.
Hoping to get further back on this line once the NLI release the digitised parish records next month. In the meantime, does anyone know where someone is likely to have been buried if they died in Knocknadogue? I traced the deaths of John's in-laws, Patrick and Anne Regan, and they were from there.
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Knocknadogue is in the civil parish of Dysart and that civil parish is included in the RC parishes of Castlecomer and Muckalee, according to the Ancestors part of the Irish Times website. According to the index of townlands in 1901 on www.irishancestors.ie (you find it under "Resources" and then "Unique resources" on the site) Knocknadogue (or Knocknaddoge as the website has it) is in the district electoral division of Castlecomer rather than Muckalee so I imagine you need to look for the burial in Castlecomer RC parish.
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Does Knocknadogue have its own graveyard or would I be looking specifically in Castlecomer itself? I know Smithstown has its own graveyard and that's very much in the vicinity.
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http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/catholic/catholic_parishes.htm
This link states that Knocknadogue became part of Castlecomer RC parish in 1873. Knocknadogue had been part of Muckalee Parish up to then.
There is an old graveyard at Dysert Bridge, but I dont have details of when it was in use.
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John's death in 1864 is possible. The last child we definitely know was his and Margaret Kearney's was Richard, born 10 July 1863. However, if Anne born 4 February 1865 was the child of John and Margaret rather than John and Anne Kearney, as it is recorded, then there is uncertainty. There was at least one other John around Castlecomer at the time. He was married to Mary Curry and they had a son John in April 1850. John was a common name among the Hetheringtons. Unfortunately, the IFHF Kilkenny records have no baptismal records for Johns in the 1820s - indeed, none before 1840 that I can find.
Margaret Brien at 72 in 1900 could be the correct person. At the least, it would explain the absence in the 1901 census. The record implies birth in 1827 or 1828. IFHF has baptismal records for three Margaret Carneys in the 1820s - in 1822, 1827 and 1829. The latter two look like good possibilities. I haven't checked them but, if either had a father named Martin, it would tie it up. Birth in 1827 or 1829 would mean Margaret was a good deal older than Patrick O'Brien when she married him in 1874 - 45 or 47 versus his 33, a big but not impossible age gap.
I've been on the new NLI website and have found a possible Margaret Kearney in the Paulstown parish register. Paulstown is about 12 miles away from Castlecomer according to Googlemaps. Parents stated to be Martin Kearney and Bridget Dooley. Her age is borderline though. If she is the one we're looking for, then she would have been about a fortnight off her 17th birthday when Martin Hetherington was born in 1852, with John 7-8 years older than her. Still can't find a marriage.
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Silverhawk
As I'm sure you found out, the two birth records for Margaret Carney in the late 1820s that I mention back in 2012 were not the correct ones since neither showed Martin as her father's name. The 1835 record seems to be the only plausible one but in the absence of a marriage record that would corroborate her birth year and/or the Paulstown address there is no way to be sure. Margaret born in 1835 had siblings but none of them turns up as sponsors for the children she had with John Hetherington.
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Even if we found the marriage record, I don't know if it would be any help regarding the age. All the 19th century marriage records I've looked at so far for Ireland haven't recorded the ages of either person :(
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Found this tonight on Trove, the Australian newspaper archive website. It's from 1940. I'm wondering if he fits into the family somewhere, however I can't find any other John Hetheringtons born in the county circa the 1860s, only mine :-\
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I think it pretty unlikely that John in the press cutting is the son of Margaret Kearney and John Hetherington since they had at least one other child born in Ireland after 1860 and Margaret remarried in Ireland after John's death. This is not compatible with John junior having gone to Australia at one year of age. Moreover, there is no record of Margaret and John having had a son named George. The fact that no other John Hetherington shows up in the birth/baptismal records in the 1860s may simply be down to the records being incomplete. I think there are Australian records for arrivals at various ports on findmypast which might help to establish who the parents of a one-year old immigrant John Hetherington were.
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I never thought it was since John is my great-grandfather and I know where he went ;D I just thought this John might be a cousin like Ger Heth's family probably are. I suspect that the Kilkenny Hetheringtons all tie in together somewhere along the line, possibly from a single Hetherington in the 18th century. Although proving it's another matter :-\
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Sorry, my mistake. I read your post too fast. I think you're right that the Kilkenny Hetheringtons - most especially the Castlecomer ones - must be related. The problem is that the available records don't let us link them up. The lack of parents names in early 19th century marriage records is a real pain in that regard.