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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Stirlingshire => Topic started by: Dano on Monday 24 October 05 04:48 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I am looking for any information on the Laird family from St Ninians & Larbert early 1700's
Alexander Laird married Agnes McLuckie abt 1735 and their children were born Larbert.
Does anyone have any information on early Lairds or McLuckies?
Regards
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Hi Dano,
Found these on the BVRs for you. . . .
LAIRD,
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 2 Mar 1740
Recorded in: Larbert, Stirlingshire, Scotland
Father: Alexander LAIRD
Mother: Agnes MCCLUCKIE
Source: FHL Film 1041953 Dates: 1723 - 1855
LAIRD, Christopher
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 3 Mar 1742
Recorded in: Larbert, Stirlingshire, Scotland
Father: Alexander LAIRD
Mother: Agnes MCCLUCKIE
Source: FHL Film 1041953 Dates: 1723 - 1855
LAIRD, Alexander
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 25 Dec 1743
Recorded in: Stirling, Stirlingshire, Scotland
Collection: St John Street; Associate Session Congregation
Father: Alexander LAIRD
Mother: Agnes MCLUCKIE
Source: FHL Film 889487 Dates: 1738 - 1816
LAIRD, Robert
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 26 Apr 1747
Recorded in: Stirling, Stirlingshire, Scotland
Collection: St John Street; Associate Session Congregation
Father: Alexander LAIRD
Mother: Agnes MCLUCKIE
Source: FHL Film 889487 Dates: 1738 - 1816
Hope this helps,
Anne
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Hello Anne,
thanks for your help, they are my Lairds. I have never been able to find a marriage for Agnes & Alexander or a birth for Agnes. Alexander was born 1710 St Ninians but Agnes it appears just sprang up from nowhere. I havemany McLuckies but none seem to relate back to Agnes.
It seems the St John Street Associated Session is a breakaway church. I wonder if the parents were married there?
I also have an Agnes born to Alex and Agnes 1736 in Larbert & an Abraham that I think belongs to them. I am hoping someone can help me solve the mystery.
Cheers
Dano
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Hi Dano,
I had a look to see if I could find a birth for Agnes McCluckie/McLuckie 1719 +/- 5 years - no luck.
I looked to see if Alexander had any siblings and it seems he (possibly) had three. There is a 12 year gap between John and Hellen and also Hellen seems to have been born in Larbert rather than St. Ninians but the two places aren't very far apart so that wouldn't count her out.
LAIRD, Robert
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 15 Nov 1707
Recorded in: St. Ninians, Stirlingshire, Scotland
Father: Robert LAIRD
Mother: Margaret COWAN
Source: FHL Film 1041956 Dates: 1688 - 1819
LAIRD, Alexander
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 28 Mar 1710
Recorded in: St. Ninians, Stirlingshire, Scotland
Father: Robert LAIRD
Mother: Margaret COWAN
Source: FHL Film 1041956 Dates: 1688 - 1819
LAIRD, John
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 18 Sep 1712
Recorded in: St. Ninians, Stirlingshire, Scotland
Father: Robert LAIRD
Mother: Margaret COWAN
Source: FHL Film 1041956 Dates: 1688 - 1819
LAIRD, Hellen
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 4 Oct 1730
Recorded in: Larbert, Stirlingshire, Scotland
Father: Robert LAIRD
Mother: Margret COWAN
Source: FHL Film 1041953 Dates: 1723 - 1855
I would imagine that the best you'll get on Alexander & Agnes would be a 'Banns' listing from the OPRs rather than an actual marriage, although I couldn't find anything on the BVRs.
Sorry,
Anne
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Hi Anne,
sorry for the delayed response. I keep writing replies and they dissapear into the ether. I guess I still have my training wheels on.
I have the 1st 3 children Robert 1707, Alexander 1710 & John 1712 all born St Ninians as the children of Robert Laird & Margaret Cowan who married 1706 St Ninians.
Then I have the following children born to Robert Laird & Margaret Cowan all born Larbert Hellen 1725, Robert 1727 & Hellen 1730. I assumed that it was the son Robert b 1707 who also married a lady named Margaret Cowan abt 1725 but I have been unable to find the marriage.
As I explain it here, it really begins to sound implausible. Perhaps it is the same couple and we have just lost the records of the children b 1712 - 1727 as the family moved from St Ninians to Larbert.
What do you think?
Regards Dano
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Hi Dano,
Mmmm...
Why would there be a 13 year gap between John (1712) and Hellen (1725). If we presume that Margaret was as young as 16 when she married Robert in 1706, 17 when Robert was born, 20 when Alexander was born, 22 when John was born, then 35 at the start of "phase 2".
It's not 'old' to still be having children but the gap, as you say, is a mystery. The only thing I can think of is maybe she suffered miscarriages?
The first Robert (and the first Hellen) must have died before the second Robert was born, so that puts him out of the equation for being the "phase 2" lot's father.
I'll have a look through the pre-1855 MI's and see if I can find anything.
Anne
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Hi Anne,
This Laird family is a real mystery. I don't know where they began. They just seemed to spring up. like so many of my other families.
The name Abraham runs in the Laird family but the name Christopher b 1742 to Agnes McLuckie & Alexander Laird appears to be rare. The only other Christopher is is nephew born 1771 Larbert to James Laird & Elizabeth Taylor.
I wonder if anyone else had come across that 1st name?
Dano
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Hi,
I know this message was first posted a few years ago, but I have recently started family research and i was looking for relevant threads on here. I am a direct descendant from Robert Laird and Margaret Cowan and Alexander Laird and Agnes Mcluckie (5th and 6th Great Grandfather).
If you have found out anything else in the last 5 years or want to exchange research please get in touch!
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Hi,
I did quite a lot of research on the Lairds. How does your line come down after Alexander & Agnes McLuckie?
Dano
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Hi,
I am very new to the family research but think i have found out a fair amount. After Alexander Laird I progress through the tree via James Laird, Charles Laird, James Laird, Charles Laird, Charles Laird until Euphemia Hay Brown Laird who was my great Grandmother.
Julie
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I will PM you over the next few days. Hopefully I can add to your research
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Dear Dano and others related to me....and the Lairds. I hope you can also help me. I am also a direct descendant of Robert Laird and Margaret Cowan through all the David Lairds down the line (including through the marriage of 1st cousins David and Elizabeth Cowan), Margaret Neilson Laird is my Ggrandmother and her daughter (my granny) Margaret Neilson Cochrane b 1900. What I was wondering is if Elizabeth Cowan (daughter of Gizzel and Thomas Cowan, neice also of the Laird's side of the family) and Margaret Cowan are somehow related???? Moraig
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Hello all. My GG.grandfather, Hugh Love, married Janet Duncan 1/12/1829 at Old Monkland. Janet's parents, James Duncan/Janet Laird m abt 1793 at Larbert. Janets' parents were Robert Laird/Margaret Mitchell m abt 1771, and Robert's parents were Robert Laird/Margaret Cowan m abt 1724 at Labert. This is according to LDS info downloaded but I have not found any info on Scotlands People. Does this sound familiar to anyone?
Hopefully . . . . . . Barbara
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any link with a martha laird with links to the gillespie family.?
T.
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Hi
I am also linked to Alexander Laird and Agnes McLuckie and would love help with details of the family.
They are my 8th great grandparents.
I can take the Lairds forward to Grizeal Laird Born 1795 in Larbert who married John Neish.
I can take the lairds back to Alexander Laird born 1580 in Perthshire.
But no luck on the McLuckies!!!!
Any help appreciated.
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ever found a connection in the mid to late 1700s in Norfolk (Kings Lynn & area) ?
We have a Laird family that just 'appears' there from nowhere it seems ... one theory is that the Patriarch absconded from Bonnie Prince Charlies army invading England ....
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Hi
All of my Lairds are from the Perthshire and Stirlingshire areas of Scotland, so none south of the border.
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I have a Robert laird and Margaret Cowan marriage in 1726. Don't know robert's dob but was about 1700 and magaret Cowan was born on 20th Jan 1704 in larbert. Margaret's father was Robert and her mother was a jean gib.jean was born about1680 in larbert and Robert on1677 in Falkirk.they married in 1698 and Robert died on 14 march 1751 if that is the same family.?
T.
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Hi. I just found rootschat and the first chat I found was about my ancestors Robert Laird and Margaret Cowan. I have the same questions about the 13 year gap, the appearance of Agnes McCluckie without any records, Abraham's records. I am wondering if anyone has found anything new. Thanks. R.
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Hello,
I have tried to research these Lairds beyond Alexander Laird b1580 and appearing in church of Scotland records in the parish of Eassie, Perthshire (less than a mile from Castle Glamis) and have been doing some guessing after lots of search results were showing 'Laird' as a title rather than as a surname. With having a few Alexander Lairds in my tree, I noticed that the Irwin/Irvine Lairds of Drum had a tradition of naming the oldest male Alexander. Although not convinced, I followed Sir Alexander 10th Laird of Drum b1596 back and found a well documented line back through the Lairds of Drum, Aberdeenshire. They'd been granted lands up there by Robert the Bruce and were first known in Dumfriesshire. Actually that line goes back to King Duncan via King Malcolm III and Saint Margaret, then a long list of Ui Neil monarchs of Ireland. I'd be interested to know what you think of all this, what with it being Aberdeen, not Perthshire and a somewhat tenuous link with the uncertainty of birth date (1580/1596 - same person or father and son?).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Irvine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Irvine)
I then researched more recent Laird wives to see if I could get anything else to perhaps lend weight to the Irwin idea and found a lot of interesting stuff. The Cowans (mentioned earlier) and Ruthven (via a Murdoch wife) are particularly interesting. The Ruthvens are linked to Huntingtower Castle...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntingtower_Castle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntingtower_Castle)
It seems they lost their castle to the Crown, only for it to eventually fall into the hands of the Cowan family (who farmed there up until 2002, apparently). Margaret Cowan b 1688 married Robert Laird b1687 (who's gg1 was Agnes Ruthven b1611) - therefore it would seem those Ruthvens retook their castle through marriage.
I have been able to trace all Laird wife lines back quite far but it is frustrating not knowing for certain what this Alexander Laird b1580's story was.
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I'd be interested to know what you think of all this, what with it being Aberdeen, not Perthshire and a somewhat tenuous link with the uncertainty of birth date (1580/1596 - same person or father and son?).
I'm afraid it all looks very dubious to me.
For a start, the parish of Eassie and Nevay is in the County of Angus, not the County of Perth, next door to the parish of Glamis in which Glamis Castle (which is never called Castle Glamis) is situated. See https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/ANS/EassieAndNevay for details. So if your research is based on sources that say Eassie is in Perthshire or refer to Castle Glamis, then I would have to question the reliability of other information in those sources.
The other thing is, don't ever guess or assume unless you annotate it so that you and anyone else reading what you have found knows it is not proved, and never believe anything you find online unless it's an image of an original document.
In particular I don't think you can equate the surname Laird with the Irvines of Drum, even on the basis that they called their eldest son Alexander. Alexander is one of the four commonest given names in Scotland and consequently is not as useful as a genealogical tool as more unusual names, or regular alternations of Alexander and a less common name.
By the late 16th century surnames were well established, and Laird as a surname is mentioned in documents as early as the 13th century. It seems to me extremely unlikely that an Irvine of Drum would change his surname to Laird, but it's not quite impossible, of course.
Incidentally I looked in Scotland's People for Al* L*r*d* baptised before 1600, and there is no listing there of such a baptism in Eassie. There is a baptism of Elizabeth, daughter of James Laird, in 1737, and no more Lairds until the 1850s, when David Laird and Jean Ann Morton had a son David and a daughter Elizabeth. According to the 1851 census this David Laird was from Inverarity. There are no records of Ir*in* in Eassie, and no baptisms of Al* L*r*d* anywhere in Scotland in 1580. The earliest one is in the parish of Dunbarney in Perthshire in 1611.
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I presume you are presuming I meant a baptism record for Alexander Laird b1580. I have his will.
I also have Alexander Laird b1611's baptism in Larbert, but I'm not sure of any link and Dunbarney isn't the part of Perthshire that is near Castle Glamis.
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You are perfectly correct in saying that Larbert isn't anywhere near Glamis Castle, which is not in Perthshire but in Angus.
Neither are there any records in the index at Scotland's People of any baptisms of Alexander Lairds in Eassie at any time before the start of statutory registration in 1855.
Is the 'will' you refer to the one dated 1639 in Cassiltoun, parish of Essie? I see that it is a testament dative, which means that he did not leave an actual will; if he had done so it would have been described as a testament testamentar. Testaments dative tell you only what the estate was worth and to whom confirmation was granted.
Where did the birth date of 1580 come from?
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That was Dunbarney, not Larbert. I have corrected it. Alexander Laird born 17th March 1611.
Yes it looks to be Dative type, it looks like it says, "Testamantium Dativum L....". It is definitely the 1639 document. I cannot decipher much of what is written over its two pages.
I think the 1580 Date of Birth for Alexander Laird was from a record on ancestry .com, if I recall correctly it was listed as "Alexr. Laird". I'll have a look.
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Yes it looks to be Dative type, it looks like it says, "Testamantium Dativum L....". It is definitely the 1639 document. I cannot decipher much of what is written over its two pages.
Is it all in Latin, then? That bit is definitely Latin.
I think the 1580 Date of Birth for Alexander Laird was from a record on ancestry .com, if I recall correctly it was listed as "Alexr. Laird". I'll have a look.
Hmmm. Sounds as if someone was guessing that he was about 50 when he died in 1639.
It occurred to me that even though Alexander Laird is described as 'in' Cassiltoun rather that 'of' Cassiltoun, there might be something in the index to the Angus Registers of Sasines, of which I happen to have a copy. There are a couple of Lairds, but they don't shed any light:
Laird, James, in Meigle, formerly in Potento (S.3) IX.296 (bis); X.98; his spouse, See Gray, Jean.
Laird, James, in Newmilne, (S.3) X.175.
Gray, Jean, spouse of James Laird in Potento, (S.3) IX.296
(S.3) is the 3rd Series. Vol IX covers 23 March 1692 to 20 August 1698 and Vol X covers 23 August 1692 to 12 December 1700. There are three Sasines mentioning James Laird in Meigle, one of which also mentions his wife Jean Gray, and one Sasine mentioning James Laird in Newmilne. No mentions of Alexander Laird or Castleton of Eassie, and they are half a century too late to be relevant. I don't know which Newmilne is referred to, or where Potento was.
Meigle is in Perthshire. There could be references in the index to the Perthshire sasines, but I don't have a copy of that.
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I found reference to "Fullerton and Potento" which may help to locate it? on;
https://www.oldscottish.com/meigle.html
Annie
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I now know where Potento was.
It's listed in various early records accessible at www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk that make it clear that it was in the parish of Meigle, but it isn't listed in the Ordnance Survey Name Books on the same site.
James Stobie's map of Perthshire in 1783 shows Potento a little way north-east of Meigle village, on the left bank of the Dean Water between Dean Bridge and a large and distinctive meander upstream of it. https://maps.nls.uk/view/74400314 and zoom in to find Meigle in the lower right part of the map.
The first edition of the Odnance Survey, surveyed in 1863, shows a farm at the same place called Cardean. https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=56.5954&lon=-3.1556&layers=5&b=1
If you click on the blue button in the box on the second map, and slide it to the left, you can see that Potento/Cardean has disappeared, replaced by a bit of woodland.
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I'm not sure this will from Alexander Laird is entirely in Latin. I have attached a screen shot.
There is an ancestry .com record (Scotland, Select Marriages, 1561-1910) of a marriage in Dunbarney of 'Alexr. Laird and Margaret Andersonn' dated 23rd January 1610.
Possibly this Margaret Anderson:
"Margaret Anderson Baptism Date: 29 Aug 1585
Baptism Place: Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland
Father: Robert Anderson
Mother: Marion Portar ".
Some information regarding the Cardean and Baikie Estate:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:csnafdPWvuEJ:https://archiveshub.jisc.ac.uk/data/gb254-ms6/ms6/9&client=firefox-b&hl=en&gl=uk&strip=1&vwsrc=0 (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:csnafdPWvuEJ:https://archiveshub.jisc.ac.uk/data/gb254-ms6/ms6/9&client=firefox-b&hl=en&gl=uk&strip=1&vwsrc=0)
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It is interesting that there is a Jean Gray ,wife of James Laird. I have noticed Mary Gray b1540 of Grey House, Buttergask, Perth, was grandmother of Sir Alexander Irvine b1580.
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I'm not sure this will from Alexander Laird is entirely in Latin. I have attached a screen shot.
No, it's not all in Latin. I can read a few of the words.
There is an ancestry .com record (Scotland, Select Marriages, 1561-1910) of a marriage in Dunbarney of 'Alexr. Laird and Margaret Andersonn' dated 23rd January 1610.
Possibly this Margaret Anderson:
"Margaret Anderson Baptism Date: 29 Aug 1585
Baptism Place: Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland
Father: Robert Anderson
Mother: Marion Portar ".
Possibly, but not very likely. Dunfermline is some way from Dunbarney, and just because there is only one person who might match is a very long way from meaning that it is the right person. Only a few baptisms in a small number of parishes were recorded in the 16th century.
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Margaret's son David Laird was born only 20 miles away from Dunfermline
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and just because there is only one person who might match is a very long way from meaning that it is the right person.
I didn't say there is only one person
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Have any of you that have Robert Laird and Margaret Cowan as ancestors taken a DNA test?
I have taken the ancestry DNA test. It seems many of my DNA matches have Irwin as shared surnames.
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I have Agnes Rae born 1771 who married Colin Mcluckie, one of their children Agnes Mcluckie born 1806 in Bothkennar married Thomas Ure 1 Oct 1826, their daughter Margaret Ure married my third great uncle Thomas Cowan. I also have laird, Graham, Ferguson and Hotchkiss in my family tree.
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Hi
I have just joined this site and noticed this old thread. I am interested in the Robert Laird who married Margaret Cowan. Many of the posts query why the gap in births of 12 years between John (B 1712 ) and Helen (B 1725). This was the time of the Jacobite uprisings and my assumption is that this Robert may have been in prison for those years, hence the gap.
Some folk also have Margaret Cowan as being born in 1704, I think I can state this is incorrect as she was married in 1706! Some folk need to check their dates.
What I am interested in is:-
1) Does anyone have any death records for the Lairds before 1800 in St Ninian or Larbert?
2) Does anyone have any records for marriages or births for the Lairds prior to 1687?
3) I have noticed some trees have pictures purporting to be Lairds prior to 1687, does anyone have these and where did they come from?
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Hello all.
I'm new to Routs chat but not to genealogy. & just getting around to this side of my tree.
I am descended via Abraham Laird & Elizabeth Simpson. Although I can find no birth or death records for Abraham, I am confident his parents are Alexander & Agnes McLucky. Based on a number of DNA matches through Abraham siblings. From Alexander, I am confident his father was Robert & his father was John. Although records are sparse it does make sense.
The question of the 12 year gap in Robert & Margaret Cowans children could be due to moving from St Ninians to Larbert & simply not registering with the local church. There could be further unknown children not recorded. However I do see a strong case for the Suggestion from Sandy_Vi. The Jacobit rising of 1715 did cause a lot of change in the country & if Robert was involved this could also enplane why he moved away from St Ninians. He doesn't seem to be close with the church there as I was unable to find has name in minute books etc. And later his Son Alexander is registering baptisms with the associate session rather then church of Scotland.
The Jacobite Theory will need further research.
The reason I joined the site & posted here is that I can find no detail of John Laird / Agnes Murdoch other then the baptism of their 4 children.
yet on Ancestry & other sites there are some wild & wonderful family trees.
If anybody can provide sources or documents prior to 1687 That would be great. I don't copy & paste trees like many others I love to provide detail & accuracy.
Many thanks.
James.
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Hello.
I am new to Genealogy as well as this site. I am wondering if anyone has solved the mystery of Alexandr Laird 1580. Wife Margaret Anderson. I am on my family tree and apparently he is my 10 great grandfather. Any info would be much appreciated.