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Messages - Oldleaf

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Annette,
Sorry to get back to you so slowly. I have been spending days and days on familysearchpilot finding all sorts of lines. I have been putting down surname family groups going way back in time, for each of the towns very near Cleobury Morimer (Neen Savage, Neen Sollars, Milton, Hopton Wafers, Kinlet, and Bayton, Worcestershire): noting births (christenings) under each set of parents, marriages, and deaths. Then, it is a matter of detective work and logic to find the right persons. I hadn't looked at the LDS stuff in years and didn't know they had the pilot info on line. Its a real gold mine of info. Besides on the Gittins side I have been doing the same on the Mantle side. You might check my inquiry and correspondence with Z on surname Mantle.
On my Philpott side in Dover and Deal, Kent, I found two possible parents for my Charles Philpott, b. 1775+/_  (1775 per census and death cert.) in Canterbury: either the son b. 1776 of Stephen Philpott and Mary ______ , or the "Base born" b. 1774 of Mary Philpott.  Glad you told me what "base" meant.
If you are interested in these lines I will provide you with the main findings for each step in the tree: the parents and dates for: births, marriages, and deaths, and the children of the parents. Let me know....
Finally, you are right about the spelling of surnames. When people couldn't read or write, the census takers spelled phonetically. It was worse in America when the immigrants also couldn't even speak English....
Oldleaf

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Shropshire Lookup Requests / Re: Mantle in Cleobury Mortimer, Shropshire
« on: Saturday 24 July 10 22:11 BST (UK)  »
Hey Z,
That's a great catch. That is obviously them. I have had many of my ancestors mis-indexed/ transcribed. I have found a number of them by going line by line through the area's census records. It's a lot easier now than back in the early 1970's with microfilm readers until your eyes hurt and you got a massive headache.
I have been having a lot of success with familysearchpilot. I have Edward James Gittins' parents as William Gittins and Elizabeth Bishop, William Gittins' parents as Edward Gittins and Margaret Hotchkiss, Edward Gittins' parents as John Gittins and Susan Watmore (?sp), Margaret Hotchkiss Gittins parents as Richard Hotchkiss and Jane Jordan, and Elizabeth Bishop Gittins parents as John Bishop and Hannah ________. On the Mantle side: Mary Mantle Gittens' parents are John Mantle and Hannah _______. Some more time on familysearchpilot may get me back farther on several of the above lines.
Thanks again, this is obsessive!!!!!!!!
Oldleaf

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Shropshire Lookup Requests / Re: Mantle in Cleobury Mortimer, Shropshire
« on: Tuesday 20 July 10 21:22 BST (UK)  »
Z,
I believe I have this Mantle family figured out! Your clues made it happen. This is based on rechecking ancestry.com UK records for births, deaths, marriages, and census. Also several days were spent combing the familysearch records and putting together families... for CMS and all surrounding towns.
Here's the result. John Mantle b. 1786/88 Cleobury Mortimer, Shropshire (CMS), d. 1851-1861-there were 5 John's that d. between 1952 and 1859 in CMS. This likely included this John, the two other John's of the same vintage that were in the 1841 census for CMS, and two others. He md. Hannah ________ about 1808, place unknown. Hannah b. 1785/90 place unknown. They had children: James (Christened dates) Jan 1810, Eliza Jul 1812, Ann May 1817, John Nov 1819, Mary Oct 1822 (my ancestor that md. Edward Gittens), Thomas Aug 1825, and Emma Mar 1828. Hannah d. 29 Jan 1829 CMS, and John md.2 Martha (.....)Jasper, a widow, in CMS 9 Sep 1830. The md. record showed Marsha, but there weren't any Marsha's anywhere, so assume a typo. John and Martha had two children together: Helen (Ellen) Apr 1831, and George Nov 1834. Martha brought at least two children by Jasper into the marriage: Thomas 1826, and Jane 1829. She may have had other earlier children by Jasper. Martha b. 1795 +/-  Much Wenlock, md.1816/24 to ________Jasper place unknown, Martha d. 1Q 1866 in CMS.
1841 census: Mawley House, CMS, John Mantle 55 (1786) farmer, Martha 45 (1796), Thomas 15 (1826),  Emma 13 (1828), Ellen 10 (1831), Thomas 15 (1826), Jane 10 (1830). The reason for Thomas and Jane to be last and out of order is likely they were Martha's kids by Jasper.
1851 census: Mawley Cottage, CMS, John Mantle 63 CMS (1788) tanner, Martha 50 Much Wenlock (1801), Ellen 20 CMS (1831).
1861 census: Mawley Lodge, CMS, under John Nash: Martha Mantle, wid., 76 Wenlock (1785). Too bad people weren't very accurate for their ages in the census: Martha could be b. 1785-1796-1801, based on child rearing ages of about 20 to 42 she was likely b. 1795 +/-.
Mary Mantle was not found in the 1841 census: she would have been age 19 and likely out working as a servant elsewhere, not found anywhere close to CMS.
Yes, in 1841 census John and Martha Mantle, page 35, lived very near William and Elizabeth Gittons, page 28. Edward Gittens b. 1820 CMS was not found with this, his Gittens family, as he was 21 and maybe a servant elsewhere, not found anywhere near CMS. 
Edward Gittens md. Mary Mantle 1845 in CMS. they were not found in the 1851 census- the only Edward Gittens with a wife Mary of the about same ages was in Frankton, Shropshire with Edward b. 1823 and Mary b. 1823 both in Ellesmere and too far away to be likey them.
Edward and Mary Gittens were in Bayton, Worcestershire for the 1861, 1871 and 1881 census. Edward d. 1886 in Bayton, didn't find Mary Gittens in the 1891 census, but 1901 was under her dau. Ellen Chambers and family in Monmouthshire, Wales, Mary d. 1902 there.
I have not checked wills for Mantle's in CMS, that's another project. It may be tough to find the parents of John Mantle as there were so many Mantle's in the
 the area. There were two early marriages in CMS: 30 Oct 1763 Thomas Mantle to Elizabeth Corbet, and 20 Aug 1765 George Mantle to Ann Jardin. One of these two may be John Mantle's parents, and a starting point for the research.
Sorry to make this so long. Maybe some other Mantle researcher might see this and it might help them.
I really appreciate your getting me going on the right track to find out about this family.
Oldleaf

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Annette,
Great new information!! Many Thanks. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I rechecked the census. I have William and Elizabeth (Bishop) in the 1841, 1851 and 1861 census for C.M. Shrop. I found William, wid. in 1871 C.M. Shrop with his dau. Caroline. Based on the death indexes, it looks like William d. 4Q 1875 and Elizabeth d. 4Q 1869, both d. in C.M.Shrop. I will send for their death certs. The census for 1851 and 1861 had another child of William and Elizabeth: Edwin b. 1843/1844. So, it looks like my Edward James Gittens was the oldest child.
I have checked the census in the C.M. Shrop area for 1841 and it looks like there weren't any Bishop's old enough to be the parents of Elizabeth (b. 1799+/-)... where the mother would have been born 1760+/- to 1780+/-, or 60 to 80 years old in 1841. If Elizabeth was b. 1799 in C.M. Shrop, maybe there is a parish or church record on her parents. Same for William Gittens b. 1793 in C.M. Shrop.
After a couple of years of looking at the on-line records it appears child mortality was really high, and there were a lot of illegitimate babies in merry old England back in those days.  I saw "base child" a few times. What is that? Does it mean "first born"?
The marriage cert. of Edward Gittins and Mary Mantle showed Residence at Time of Marriage of Ma_le_town. The blanks look almost like a "y" but the loop below the line is on the backside. This letter also looks almost the same as the Y in Cleobury, month of May, and Mary. I assume it is a y. Is there, or was there, a "Mayleytown" somewhere near Cleobury Mortimer?
Oldleaf

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Shropshire Lookup Requests / Re: Mantle in Cleobury Mortimer, Shropshire
« on: Monday 12 July 10 21:58 BST (UK)  »
Z,
Many Thanks for such a fast reply!!!. The birth of Mary looks good as she was very consistent in her age on the census' with an indicated birth year of 1823, which would also include born in late 1822! My delay in getting back to you is from your note that Mary's parents were John Mantle and HANNAH.... I have searched the census for 1841 and 1851 in the surrounding area to C.M. Shrop. and didn't find a John with wife Hannah. My guess is that Hannah died between 1822 and 1841 and John remarried to one of the above three wives. What is the IGI? Maybe it would be worthwhile to check if John and Hannah had anymore children and their birth years, if there is any record of a death of a Hannah, and a remarriage of John. 
I will continue to look at the bmd on-line records.
Oldleaf

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Am trying to find the name of the mother of Edward James Gittins (Gittens). He was b. 1822 Cleobury Mortimer, Shropshire (CMS). His marriage certificate of 1845 in CMS showed his father as William. The census' of CMS for 1841, 1851, and 1861 had a William Gittins b. 1793 and wife Elizabeth b. 1799, both b. in CMS. Neither William or Elizabeth were in the 1871 census so must have died there between the census of 1861 and 1871.
I need some look-up help: likely in the parish or church records on the birth date and baptism of Edward James, Elizabeth's maiden name and when William and Elizabeth may have died. I have the death cert. on Edward James Gittins, 1886 CMS.
From across the pond in Illinois, USA, with sincere appreciation for any help

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Shropshire Lookup Requests / Mantle in Cleobury Mortimer, Shropshire
« on: Friday 09 July 10 02:28 BST (UK)  »
My ancestor Mary Mantle (b. 1823 C.M. Shrop) md. Edward Gittens (Gittins) there in 1845. Marriage Certificate said her father was John Mantle. In Census for 1841, and 1851 were three possible sets of parents: John and Elizabeth, John and Martha, and John and Mary.  Need help from "across the pond": a look-up of parish or church baptisms that might show Mary's parents names.

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