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Messages - sallyyorks

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Lancashire / Re: American Civil War soldier from Lancashire - ROLLINS
« on: Wednesday 19 May 21 13:22 BST (UK)  »
Most Catholics in the North of England, especially at this time, would be more likely be English than Irish. Lancashire, and Yorkshire, had/has high numbers of English Catholics and also Nonconformists, as well as CofE.

Mary Hunsworth possibly had more illigitimate children, there is also a James baptised 1833, though this does not necessarily mean he was born in 1833. He was baptised at Culcheth which isn't far from Leigh, no father named. Also an Ann 1830 and Alice 1837

I had a look for Mary and children on the census but it's quite a common surname in the area. I think Helen/Ellen might have died young.

Not sure if you've used it before but the Lancashire OPC site I linked is a great resource for anyone with ancestors in Lancashire

Lancashire / Re: American Civil War soldier from Lancashire - ROLLINS
« on: Wednesday 19 May 21 05:31 BST (UK)  »
Also and maybe not much help, but there are also a ton of Rollinsons in Lancashire (and Yorkshire). Might it be possible he shortened his name?

Lancashire / Re: American Civil War soldier from Lancashire - ROLLINS
« on: Wednesday 19 May 21 05:24 BST (UK)  »
Sorry no Thomas, but an RC baptism in Leigh, Lancashire. Illegitimate? Father named as John Rolling

Baptism: 8 Mar 1829 St Joseph RC, Bedford, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Helen Hunsworth - [Child] of John Rolling & Mary Hunsworth
Godparents: Thomas Hunsworth; Ann Boardman

There is also a Rawling family in Oldham, Lancashire with occuaption shoemaker

Baptism: 15 Mar 1835 St Mary, Oldham, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Rawling - Daughter of Henry Rawling & Mary
Abode: Croft Bank
Occupation: Shoemaker.

Baptism: 28 Aug 1836 St Mary, Oldham, Lancashire, England
William Wilson Rawling - Son of Henry Rawling & Mary
Abode: Mount Pleasant
Occupation: Shoemaker

Baptism: 3 Jun 1838 St Mary, Oldham, Lancashire, England
Mary Jane Rawling - Daughter of Henry Rawling & Mary
Abode: Mount Pleasant
Occupation: Cordwainer

Lancashire / Re: Manchester "Peterloo"
« on: Thursday 08 August 19 10:46 BST (UK)  »

The main reason the population in the industrial districts/ towns like Manchester 'vastly' increased was because people moved in from the surrounding Lancashire, Yorkshire, Cheshire etc countryside. Though most people attending Peterloo were not actually from Manchester. They came from surrounding town's

Yes there were waves of  Irish immigration at certain times, circa late 1840s, circa 1900 and also after the last war, but the Irish joined a huge demographic of English Working Class and so did not make a 'vast' difference to the population and especially not in 1819.

These are the most common surnames in Lancashire in 1881. The surnames for Manchester, even now, are similar

SMITH   45,465   1.3115   0.93
TAYLOR   38,342   1.1060   1.73
JONES   34,724   1.0017   0.88
JACKSON   18,242   0.5262   1.88
WILLIAMS   18,213   0.5254   0.73
BROWN   17,335   0.5001   0.76
ROBINSON   16,378   0.4725   1.48
WILSON   15,643   0.4512   0.98
JOHNSON   15,078   0.4350   1.29
ROBERTS   14,387   0.4150   1.10
HARRISON   13,369   0.3857   1.74
DAVIES   13,293   0.3835   0.75
THOMPSON   13,089   0.3776   1.26
WOOD   13,015   0.3754   1.18
HUGHES   12,467   0.3596   1.28
WALKER   12,032   0.3471   1.04
HALL   11,757   0.3392   1.15
SHAW   11,616   0.3351   1.82
TURNER   11,591   0.3344   1.20
HOWARTH   11,395   0.3287   6.84
HOLT   10,528   0.3037   4.54
WRIGHT   10,502   0.3029   0.94
GREEN   10,442   0.3012   1.07
WILKINSON   10,296   0.2970   1.95
ASHWORTH   9,551   0.2755   6.91
EVANS   9,220   0.2660   0.61
YATES   9,171   0.2646   3.85
HOLDEN   9,076   0.2618   4.78
MORRIS   8,723   0.2516   1.13
RILEY   8,663   0.2499   3.16
KELLY   8,522   0.2458   2.24
WALSH   8,416   0.2428   4.56
BOOTH   8,397   0.2422   2.46
LORD   8,273   0.2386   5.18
WHITTAKER   8,043   0.2320   4.90
SCHOFIELD   7,978   0.2301   4.25
BUTTERWORTH   7,951   0.2294   6.39
HARGREAVES   7,874   0.2271   5.45
PARKINSON   7,744   0.2234   4.66
CHADWICK   7,697   0.2220   5.08
HILL   7,522   0.2170   0.85
HARTLEY   7,518   0.2169   3.46
LEE   7,497   0.2163   1.32
GREENWOOD   7,302   0.2106   2.71
WHITEHEAD   7,269   0.2097   3.10
KAY   7,249   0.2091   4.02
WARD   7,223   0.2084   0.95
FLETCHER   7,205   0.2078   1.82
EDWARDS   7,112   0.2052   0.74
BARNES   6,968   0.2010   1.67

The Common Room / Re: WDYTYA - Jack & Michael Whitehall 5/8/19
« on: Thursday 08 August 19 02:01 BST (UK)  »

The Newport Riots were the last occasion on which significant numbers of British citizens were killed and maimed by their own troops* - best estimate is that 22 died (Wikipedia), 20 years after Peterloo. It was also the last time anybody was sentenced to be hanged, drawn and quartered, though this was commuted to transportation for life. More people should know about this. It's a pity if the story got obscured by the celebs.

* depends what you mean by significant - 4 died in the Mold riots of 1869, doubtless there were other examples.

4 killed at Preston in 1842. Plug Riots and Chartism. Preston had a wide franchise prior to the 1832 Reform Act so didn't benefit from the reform. Henry Hunt, the speaker at Peterloo was M.P. for Preston 1830-1833. One of my 3xGGFs in Preston was a Chartist and trades unionist. The shooting happened in the street where a doctor who was brother-in-law of another of my 3xGGFs lived.

*It also depends on what you mean by "British citizens".

Yes the 1842 General Strike (AKA Plug Riots) included 6 dead at Halifax, as well as the deaths at Preston
The Reform Bill Riots (Great Reform Act 1832) also saw widespread rioting and numbers of dead
I really despair at WDYYYA history research. Last week we had shock horror at 1830's indenture in Jamaica, as if this wasn't already widespread in England at the time. The Huskar Pit disaster happened 9 years after slavery had been abolished in the BWI, but WDYTYA wouldn't dream of covering something like English coal miners (see the scrapped Michael Parkinson episode)

As a side note. Bradford Chartists were supposed to join the Newport rebellion. Long story why it failed but interesting 

Lancashire / Re: Manchester "Peterloo"
« on: Thursday 08 August 19 01:35 BST (UK)  »
...also, it wasn't the 'Cheshire Yeomanry'
It was the Manchester and Salford.

Lancashire / Re: Manchester "Peterloo"
« on: Thursday 08 August 19 01:12 BST (UK)  »
The meeting was orderly until The  Cheshire Yeomanry charged into the crowd.
Reports had it that  as Yeomanry they were not professional soldiers and had they been it would have been more orderly and so most probably fewer casualties,  if any and less panic.
Many were there because they were hoping their demonstration would bring about the repeal of The Corn Laws and so the price of bread would be more affordable for working people.
The fact that whole families were there in a day out sort of atmosphere showed the peaceful intentions of the crowd.
The Chartist movement had a presence too.
There was a lovely building in Ancoats built by The Chartist movement.  “ The Round House “ in Ancoats near Ancoats Hall.
It was the time of rotten boroughs and the ” Pot Walloper boroughs”
Manchester had one M.P whereas somewhere like Old Sarum a deserted village had two  and places much smaller than M/c had several.
So there were several causes that day.
It was entirely peaceable until the cavalry charged with drawn swords.
People were chased for long distances ,some as far as Haslingden, on the way to Burnley.
Even so it was the 1830’s before Peel repealed The Corn laws.
A good account in a famous book by Linnaeus Banks, The Manchester Man.
A good description of the events on Oldham St and Oldham the cavalry chased people.
Book written pre1876 ,with some   first hand accounts included by author.
When you think that many of those present came from surrounding areas and were still home workers,spinning and weaving in their cottages in the areas surrounding Manchester and only twenty five or thirty years later the slums of Manchester  had been built, according to Friedrich Engels the worst slums in Europe.
Wonder what the casualty figures would have been then as the population of Manchester must have quadrupled .
There were also by then Irish Immigrants fleeing the famine and they had their own grievances besides those of the indigent population.
Interesting times, once again we do not know we are born!
Just read the relevant chapter and and it was The Manchester and Cheshire Yeomanry.
They charged so they could issue a warrant to Hunt,but they could see they would  not get through the crowd,so they charged when all was peaceable.
The order was not necessary and the one who commanded it was justly condemned.
There were many injuries and those who died later from their wounds were not counted as mortalities ,only those who died at the scene.

Sorry but this information is wrong.

Peterloo happened  in 1819. The 'Chartist' period did not begin until the late 1830s and the Irish famine was in the 1840s. There was no "Chartist presence' at Peterloo, this came later at  much larger meetings, such as Peep Green in 1839.
Apart from Peterloo, Manchester wasn't  even known as that much of a radical town 

Good match with the occupation Althea7

What are the occupations on the census?
Are the family found on the census in Stockport (Cheshire) or Manchester (Lancashire) or both?

'Lancashire Cotton Famine' is a bit of a misnomer, as probably the worst hit county was Cheshire, though it did affect both regions badly and even beyond

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