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Messages - Greaves

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« on: Tuesday 18 January 22 14:08 GMT (UK)  »
True, there might not have been a formal marriage to Charles BRADFORD.

My only real interest is in understanding why she uses the two names WRIGHT and BRADFORD, which a marriage would explain.

This all began because her daughter Emma Frances Martin married an ancestor of mine, name James GILBERT. Emma died very young of TB and James subsequently married Harriett MARDELL, with whom he had eight children.

Interestingly the eighth child Alice GILBERT was born in 1876, whereas James died in 1873! The 1839 register gives her DOB as 10 Mar 1876. There is no birth certificate for Alice GILBERT. There is, however, a birth certificate for an Alice MARTIN, born 11 Apr 1876. Her parents were Edward MARTIN and Harriett MARTIN (formerly MARDELL). I know that there was no formal marriage between Edward and Harriett, as the latter died as Harriett GILBERT, the widow of James GILBERT, in 1889.

So this all began as an attempt to find out about Edward MARTIN.

The DAYs, MARTINs, GILBERTs and MARDELLs all figure heavily in my tree and were intertwined  families. I know, for instance, that Mary Ann MARTIN, the mother of James GILBERT's first wife, remained in touch with him after his second marriage, indeed she was a witness at his second marriage.

So many unknowns about these families and their relationships. I am fairly sure that Edward MARTIN was the father of James GILBERT's youngest daughter. And I am also fairly sure, that Edward was a relative in some way to Mary Ann's first husband and thus her through marriage.

« on: Tuesday 18 January 22 13:54 GMT (UK)  »
I have found records for all three marriages. I have also found records for her own death and those of her three husbands. It is her childhood and parentage which is causing me trouble.

I can't think why she married under the name WRIGHT for her first marriage, but gave her father as Charles BRADFORD for the subsequent two marriages. For the births of all six children - by two different fathers - she gives her former name as WRIGHT.

As far as I can see, it all points to her being born a WRIGHT in Shadwell in or around 1816 and later adopting the name of a step-father.

Both her father and Charles Bradford remain mysterious. I can find no appropriate records for any of their marriages or deaths. For the 1865 marriage she states that her father Charles Bradford is deceased. At the 1849 marriage, her father is also named as Charles Bradford, but there is no indication that he is deceased. All of which suggests that he died between 1849 and 1865. It also suggests that her natural father ? WRIGHT, must have died before 1845, possibly between 1832 and 1845.

« on: Tuesday 18 January 22 13:45 GMT (UK)  »
Her last son, David Edward DAY, was born in 1851. On his brith certificate, she gives her former name as WRIGHT rather than BRADFORD, the name she married under.

On her death certificate in 1897, her age was given as 82, which suggests a birth in c1815. So the 1816 birth is well within range.

I can't help but think that finding a marriage for her mother to Bradford would go a long way to solving the puzzle.

« on: Tuesday 18 January 22 13:35 GMT (UK)  »
Yes, she must have been 16. The wedding register is of the old type, so doesn't mention either age or fathers. The marriage was by banns, so no special licence which was the norm for a minor or father's permission. There are witnesses who do not seem to be relatives of the couple, though I am unable to fully decipher their names.

« on: Tuesday 18 January 22 12:43 GMT (UK)  »
I am interested in the above woman, who as far as I can ascertain married three times.

She married William Martin at St John in Hackney in 1832. She married under the name Mary WRIGHT and was a spinster. The couple had six children and for those born during the civil registration period, she gave her former name as WRIGHT.

Following the death of William Martin, she married David DAY in 1849 at All Hallows in Tottenham. She married under the name Mary Ann MARTIN. She was a widow and named her father as Charles BRADFORD, a labourer.

Finally, in 1865 she married James CHAMPKEN at West Hackney. She married under the name Mary Ann DAY. She was a widow and named her father as Charles BRADFORD, a labourer.

So there is some confusion surrounding her birth and the name of her father. According to various censuses, she was born in Shadwell around 1816. I'm guessing she was born a WRIGHT and that her mother later remarried Charles BRADFORD, who was thus her step-father.

Trouble is I can't find any suitable record for her birth, so I can't confirm the names of her parents. Nor can I find a WRIGHT/BRADFORD marriage. I would appreciate any help or indeed alternative suggestions.

London and Middlesex / Re: Mary Elizabeth LLEWELLIN
« on: Monday 17 January 22 13:37 GMT (UK)  »
The 1921 release has not helped, since I can't find any member of the family in that census. Admittedly I have only looked at what FindMyPast shows without paying, but none of the results that are revealed look like they are worth spending money for.

Judging by the 1911 census, there should be:

James GILBERT (52), Mary Elizabeth GILBERT (46), James GILBERT (22), Emma GILBERT (20), Alfred GILBERT (17), William GILBERT (15) and Arthur GILBERT (12).

in 1911, the family were at 18 Tenterden Road, Tottenham. And in 1933 when James GILBERT died, the family were in Lorenco Road, Tottenham.

So in 1921, I would expect at least some of them to be in the same area, the border of Tottenham and Edmonton. But I just can't find them.

London and Middlesex / Re: Burials of two brothers and two sisters
« on: Friday 14 January 22 15:28 GMT (UK)  »
Not yet. I have written to them, but as of yet have not received a reply. If I hear anything I will post a reply

London and Middlesex / Re: Burials of two brothers and two sisters
« on: Monday 13 December 21 17:12 GMT (UK)  »
Not yet. I have put a letter in the post and I am waiting for a reply.

Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: Name on census
« on: Saturday 11 December 21 12:26 GMT (UK)  »
Annie COLBOURN born 12 Jul 1841 to John and Sarah COLBOURN [Q3 1841 Hungerford 6 178] under the name Jane. Baptised 22 Aug 1841 at St Mary in Kintbury.

You need to know that when she married William Albert in 1881 in Wandsworth, her name was Annie Jane HEWITT, a widow aged 35. Her father who was deceased was John COLBOURN. She seems to have started off as Jane, but later used Annie. In the 1901 census she is listed as Annie J BELLINGER, b Hungerford, Berks.

Nothing in this family is ever simple or straight-forward.

Note that whereas Frederick was born in Merthyr Tydfil shortly after the marriage of his parents, Agnes was born in Marylebone only two years later in 1875. Alfred was evidently a groom.

Millmoor - great find

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