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Messages - fionnghal

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Fife / Patrick in Elie, Fife
« on: Thursday 03 December 15 23:37 GMT (UK)  »
Hi folks, I'm wondering if any of you have come  across an Elie family.
JOHN PATRICK & MARGARET DOWNIE m.3 Nov 1745 in Elie, Fife
Their kids:
JOHN PATRICK             x.14 Sep 1746 Newburn, FIF      IGI  C114514 
JAMES PATRICK             b.1 May 1748 x.May 1748 Elie, FIF   IGI C114272 
ANDREW PATRICK     b.27 Jun 1750 x.1 Jly 1750 Elie, FIF   IGI C114272 
WILLIAM PATRICK      b.5 Nov 1753 x.11 Nov 1753 Elie, FIF   IGI C114272 
MARGARET PATRICK     b.8 Oct 1755  x.12 Oct 1755 Elie,  FIF   IGI C114272 
JANET PATRICK             b.24 Dec 1757 x.25 Dec1757 Elie,  FIF   IGI C114272 

I'm particularly interested in the family's occupation plus the son WILLIAM
Who did he marry? 

There are two William Patricks born in 1753 and I suspect mine is one of them.  The other is born in Forgan Fife and could equally be him.  There is a temptation to link to them however, I really feel the need to make sure I'm making the right choice.  So far, data is somewhat thin on the ground.

Their kids:
DAVID PATRICK     x.25 NOV 1739 Forgan FIF   all C114312
MARY PATRICK            x.4 DEC 1743 Forgan
JAMES PATRICK     x.6 MAR 1748 Forgan    
JOHN PATRICK             x.18 FEB 1750 Forgan
WILLIAM PATRICK    x.10 Jan 1753 Forgan FIF   chr. after his dad's death.

Some researchers have adopted the latter William for the marriage I have in mind, but present no reasoned argument for their choice.  I'd just like to make sure.  It's not a particularly popular choice of forename amongst the Patricks it seems and for that i should be thankful. 

They don't appear to have followed the more common family naming system either!

Thank you for your time and trouble

World War One / Re: 1/5 Argyll & Suthd. Highlanders question
« on: Friday 22 May 15 16:45 BST (UK)  »
Thank you very much indeed.  That explains things :)


World War One / Re: 1/5 Argyll & Suthd. Highlanders question
« on: Tuesday 19 May 15 14:31 BST (UK)  »
ceud mile taing 'son sin / 100,000 thanks for that.
that was really helpful info and advice, dduncan  :) 
at one point ages ago, i wrote to Edinburgh castle and they informed me that the 1/5 were never involved in the Dardanelles!!   but i've since been reassured that they indeed were!
I'll go and chase down these books  :-)

tioraidh an-drast' / bye for now


Selkirkshire / Re: MacMILLAN, Kirkhope gravestone enquiry [enquiry answered]
« on: Monday 18 August 14 19:09 BST (UK)  »
Thank you very much Alan, that's just who i hoped the family was. and more info than I'd expected :-)

Devon / Re: William Cook Jutsum .. Glazier
« on: Saturday 04 January 14 18:34 GMT (UK)  »
part 2:
As a matter of interest, I spotted, in the 1798 Land Tax Redemption records for Willand DEV, a parish within the Halberton hundred, a record of a proprietor, Nathaniel, who has a tenant by the name of John Jutsum. Both our forebears died a few years before the enumeration was done but the association of names begs a few questions even if it doesn't answer them :-) 
 In the ledger, the Willand returns are sandwiched between Halberton and Samford Peverell and is only 1 pgs long [back and front], each page no. when the ledger is opened out is only marked on the right hand side so takes care of the front and back of hte page,  i've numbered it, for my own refence, pps.192a & 192b.  The Cook & Jutsum names appear on p.192b. Willand is only a mile or two north of Cullompton.
Land Tax Redemption Office: Quotas & Assessments 1798, IR23; Piece: 17, Vol. 2, pps.192a & b /556
Hundred of Halberton, parish of Willand, DEV
Proprietor:    Nathl Cook   
Tenant:  Jno Jutsum
Residence:    Willand, Devon, England

How have you found researching Devon records?  I ordered a number of films up through the LDS but they were all images of typed registers rather than the originals, which means so many mistakes & missed entries could have been made already. 

That'll have to do it for today.  if i think of anything else, I'll get back to you and if you have any questions - I've assumed you have most of these dates complete - let me know.  It'd be quite good to untie any knots and clear the view.

cheers for now


Devon / Re: William Cook Jutsum .. Glazier
« on: Saturday 04 January 14 18:33 GMT (UK)  »
hi Fred,
I have, bracketed into my family tree, a John Jutsum [b.c.1701, d.1786] who in 1730 apparently married a Sarah Cook [d.1796] at Stamford Peverell.  I say bracketed, because i prefer not to regard any individuals as gospel until i have been able to research & prove, to my own personal satisfaction, that what i have is correct.  There is apparently, out there in the ether, a difference of opinion as regards the Jutsum family but I prefer not to get involved in it and that's not to mention funny online trees, where folk have either never read their actual docs - if they have them - or simply copied everyone elses names & dates regardless of how unlikely they may be!  One day i hope to get down to Devon and look it all out for myself but I'm not sure when that will be as it'll take a bit of organizing.  So, there could be mistakes in this.  Some of hte dates and info were a bit iffy.

Anyway, if the marriage is bone fide and they do belong, the couple had the kids I've noted here:  all born Halberton as far as i can see
Saml* J b.c.1731; occ. unknown; d.1790 Halberton
John** J b.1733, occ. Overseer or collector apparently;  d.1837 North Molton district
Rchd J b.c.1736 occ. London butcher, d.1787, St Botolph, LON;
Ralph*** J 1739; occ. yeoman; d.1801 West Buckland SOM;
Danl J 1st b.1743; d. aged 1 mth, Halberton DEV
Danl 2nd b.c.1745  I have him as an appr. butcher in Sampford P in 1763
Sarah b.c.1751; maybe d.1755 Halberton

I don't have any suggested birth for Sarah Cook, but John Jutsum is reputed to be the son of John Jutsum & Hannah Marsh.

Their son, Samuel*, is reputed to be the one who married Elzth Hussey

Son Ralph***, as you can see, moved to Somerset , however,  I've never spotted a son for them, never mind a William, but that doesn't mean they didn't have one.  Ralph married an Elzth Norrish / Norris in 1763 and their policy of using mum's surname as a middle name does suggest something of a tradition evolving.  Those i've found on the IGI are Sarah, Elzth, Jenny & Mary all with the middle name Norris and 1765 & 1772.  There are a few other girls i was 'given' but i've found nothing to prove they are in fact theirs.  They certainly had time to have had more kids.  The above mentioned kids were chr. in Dulverton SOM and i've no idea where that is in relation to West Buckham where they settled so it is possible, if they are two different registration districts, that more kids are hidden there., no doubt with the wrong spelling to confuse the issue

I don't have either of your Frederick Ralph Caleb Jutsum or his dad, William Cook Jutsum in London but then it's not surprising as i clearly don't haev the all important link.  However, i don;t doubt you have a genuine link to my Halberton and Somerset Jutsums.  It's just finding that link.    These forebears can be very inconsiderate, can't they?

This William Cookbirth is interesting.  I thought at first it had to be the above Ralph's brother John**, and that would make sense.  I have him as marrying an Ann Baker in 1776 and producing  a son and 4 dau's that i've found so far. Marrying in 1776 makes them unlikely parents for William C., however, that allows for dad, John, to have had a previous marriage.  Judging by the d.o.b I have for him in 1733, he;d have been in his 40s when he married Ann.  So, maybe he married the Elzth below* in time to haev a son called William C J. c.1772.  That'd be worth looking into if you have;t already.
William Cooke Jutson chr: 28 July 1771 St Thomas the Apostle Exeter, DEV s of John & Elzth*  Jutson
It might also be worth looking at the above John J & Ann Baker's marriage lines, the originals if possible, to see if it mentions his being a widower. 
Just a thought.

I take it this is some of your lot:
William Jutsum b.14 Oct 1803 chr.29 Dec 1808 St. James, Westminster MDX s of William & Mary Cook Jutsum
Mary Elizth. Jutsam b.14 Oct 1803 chr.29 Dec 1808 St. James, Westminster MDX dau of of William & Mary Cook Jutsum
Thos. Cheesman Jutsam b.8 Apr 1807, chr.    29 Dec 1808 St. James, Westminster MDX s of Wm. & Mary Cook Jutsam
 They certainly fit with the Exeter born Wm C J being born when he was and moving to London. 

William Cook Jutsum m. Ann Blackburn  23 Dec 1850 Saint Anne Soho, Westminster MDX
William John Jubsum(sic) chr.5 Dec 1858 Chelsea, MDX s of William & Ann Cook Jubsum
I just did a quick hunt, to give me a piture of times and places.

I suppose you've tried looking for Apprenticeship records.   Just once in a million tries, something worthwhile pops up :-]

If the above information is correct, I too descend from the same couples, this being my early tree
John Jutsum m. Grace unknown c.1672 Cadeleigh DEV
John Jutsum m. Hannah Marsh ca.1694 Sampford P
John  Jutsum m. SArah Cook 1730 S.P
Saml Jutsum m. Elzth Hussey 1764 Halberton
Richd Jutsum m. Anne Coles 1790 Halberton
Robert Salter m. Elzth Jutsum 1824 Halberton
dau Jane Salter m. James Beavis, a London cheesemonger,

It appears my original message was too long so pt.2 will follow



Devon / Re: William Cook Jutsum .. Glazier
« on: Saturday 04 January 14 00:37 GMT (UK)  »
hi, are you still looking for this connection?  I haven't been doing too much FH of late with other things getting in the way or i might have spotted this message earlier.

I have this member of the Jutsum family and know a little about them, though, of course, that may not be any more than you have.  if you're still looking, please let me know

Happy new year


Dorset / Re: MI lookup in Portesham maybe Abbotsbury too
« on: Tuesday 12 March 13 15:14 GMT (UK)  »
right, thank you.  that's useful info.  :-)


Dorset / Re: MI lookup in Portesham maybe Abbotsbury too
« on: Tuesday 12 March 13 12:12 GMT (UK)  »
Thank you, Shirl, for that.  :-)
I am familiar with the Dorset OPC pages.  They're great aren't they and clearly the transcribers have given a lot of their time to making the data available, free, to one and all who have Dorset forebears.  However, and I can't speak yet for the other parishes, but Porteshan's vitals pages are  incomplete as you may have discovered.  The data was extracted from filmed BT's and not all years had been photographed leaving glaring gaps, plus there are individuals who appear in the OPR's who, for whatever reason, don't appear in the BT copy.  I've found the selfsame thing happening in the BT's of other counties too.  In spite of that, as long as one is aware of the holes, the transcriptions are a marvellous facility for the rest of us.

Also, valuable though burial data is, MI's provide a somewhat different category of information. They often provide family groups, and sometimes family members who never made it to any of the local records.   For instance, gravestones sometimes commemorate relations who died and were buried elsewhere.  They can often give a clue as to which of the two John's who married Elizabeths was the couple who belong to you particularly before parents started getting a mention on folks' marriage lines.  They can draw your attention to the perhaps previously unknown fact that forebear Joseph actually married two Marys and there was you thinking all the time that it was the same Mary that bore the whole string of kids.  Forebears can be very misleading in their doings! All adds to the fun of the chase of course :-)   

Some relatives got themselves planted in a different county or parish. For very many years we couldn't understand what had happened to one of ours; he died in Edinburgh in Scotland after spending all his adult life and raising all his kids there.  His wife died and was buried there, but no sign of John.  How could we ever have foreseen his arranging his burial in St Mary's churchyard in Hayes, Kent - in the 1830s what's more - so as to be buried alongside his 2 brothers neither of whom died in Hayes.  A long journey by horse and carriage that! That's well over 600 miles.  Fortunately it was mid-winter but one can only hope he was well embalmed!  Wee things like that.   An MI can often answer questions where other sources fail.   

Thanks again for your input  :-)


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