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Have come away from the Dragons Den wall and have finally got around to looking at my tree.

The 1851 "William Hobyland" census does supposedly put a spanner in the works.

However, I have my 4 x Great Grandma Frances Holiland (also mentioned elsewhere as being Holyland) born 1811 in Barsby. She married a James Norman. Their daughter Jane Norman had a son to father unknown (Simeon Norman) in 1860 at Rothley Workhouse. In 1863 she married Fulshaw Holyland Jnr (1843-1919). Little Simeon became Simeon Norman Holyland.

The above information is correct as far as I can see.

I have Frances' parents as:

John Holyland
Birth 1770 • Ratby Leicestershire

and

Judith Parker
Birth ABT 27 MAY 1770 • Queninborough, Leicestershire, England

This  part is perhaps a bit shaky. But it is odd that we have Frances being a Holyland and her daughter ending up marrying a Holyland. From later newspaper reports, it appears their marriage wasn't a happy one. She ended up leaving Fulshaw & Simeon sometime between 1871 & 1884 - when she turns up in Nottingham.

Meanwhile, Fulshaw is recorded as being in the military in 1881. He fathers children with his "lodger" Elizabeth Gee - the first one being Harry Gee Holyland in 1885. Elizabeth already had children from a previous relationship.

From the censuses & certificates I have... In 1881 - Fulshaw is listed as a widdower. Elizabeth Gee as a "boarder" and the 4 Gee children are listed as sons/daughters of the head : Fulshaw. So it appears Jane has been wiped from Fulshaws life.

Later on, Jane remarries in Nottingham in 1884. On the marriage certificate I have she lies about her age (making herself younger for her new husband) and also lists herself as a widow. Her father is mentioned as being James Norman (deceased) - which fits in correctly.

A string of strange situations.

I think increasingly that the marriage between Fulshaw Holyland and Jane Norman was one of convenience. Somehow there must be a link between Frances & Fulshaw. Even if I have got my link wrong - I am of the opinion that something fishy has gone on, as is my distant cousin in NZ who is related to Simeon Norman Holyland's sister Charlotte Norman Holyland.

The Norman surname came from Jane, but by the time my Great Uncle was born in 1919 the "Norman" had become a middle name. His name was also Simeon Norman (the 3rd generation of Simeon Normans) - but he was known in my family as Uncle Norman!!!

John.

Thooper fly, I'm not too sure about your lines being as linked as you think.

Fulshaw's parents are listed as William and Hannnah nee Jakes. But I can't find any baptisms that fit the suggested age on the census for William. Furthermore, on the 1851 census it says he was born in Reading, Berkshire! That seems a bit left-field --unless that's truly what he said!

There is the marriage earlier of William H and Mary Fulshaw; they were the parents of the older Fulshaw/Fulcher, b in Desford in 1748. He went to London, as did other Holylands; I know of several Holylands from the Leicester branches who ended up there. Using the Fulshaw name again would suggest to me that your Fulshaw descends from that same line, or one of the lines close to it (I know, from documents, that Leic and London cousins were in contact; and the widow of one of Fulshaw's  cousins named him as her executor for example).

What do you think?

Here is another angle (from Wikipedia):

"Reid and Sigrist was an English engineering company based at New Malden in Surrey. It later acquired sites at Desford and Braunstone in Leicestershire. Initially it developed and manufactured aircraft instrumentation and pilot selection aids but later diversified into flying training and aircraft design. During World War II the company was part of the Civilian Repair Organisation repairing, rebuilding and converting warplanes at the Desford site. Post-war it continued to manufacture aviation instruments and guidance systems but also diversified further to produce cameras and optical instruments. In 1954 the company was purchased and taken-over by the Decca Record Company".

"From January 1940 Desford also housed units of the Civilian Repair Organisation (Reid & Sigrist - my note), engaged in aircraft repairs and modifications, originally the Boulton Paul Defiant, and later the B-25 Mitchell. Vickers-Armstrongs also had a factory at Desford to manufacture undercarriages for Supermarine Spitfires, and also carried out the assembly of aircraft there, with about 1,000 Spitfires rolling out of the Desford factory."

Additionally...

"During World War II Reid and Sigrist was one of the companies incorporated into the Civilian Repair Organisation set up by the British Air Ministry to co-ordinate the repair of damaged RAF aircraft. This work was carried out at the Desford site. The initial contract covered the repair of Boulton Paul Defiant two-seat turret fighter, with the first airframe being delivered to Desford in January 1940. This was later followed by an additional contract to convert the obsolete Defiants into the TT target towing version of the aircraft.

Reid and Sigrist also undertook repairs of RAF Bell P-39 Airacobra fighters and also signed contracts to repair and convert North American B-25 Mitchell bombers. Work on Defiant airframes finished in June 1945 and the last Mitchells left Desford in November the same year. "

Apparently Reid & Sigrist was part of the Civilian Repair Organisation. I've just got the feeling that my Grandad Raymond Nelson was involved in this. R&S also had an operation at Braunstone aerodrome, so this wasn't simply a "satelite emergency landing field for Desford" as I first throught. The RAF trained pilots here too as well as at the main Desford base.

At Desford R&S worked on : Airacobra, Defiant; parts of Harvard, Mitchell bombers.

I found this R&S related link as well... which might be of interest...
https://www.revolvy.com/page/Reid-and-Sigrist

The fact that my Grandad was not in the military (or the RAF, unlike his younger brother) and was in the LEI 8 Home Guard battalion rather points to the fact that his occupation must have been a reserved one. From his marriage certificate at Enderby he is listed as an electrical engineer. Postwar I was told that he worked for Armstrong Whitworth, which with R&S and Whittle, had a relationship with them.

Postwar he lived in the Glenhills Prefabs, which were built for Whittle factory workers. Perhaps another connection?

From 1953-63 my Grandad was a Radio Ham and into the 60's he worked as an Aircraft Radio Fitter Foreman for Auster-Beagle at Rearsby. The Auster Heritage group confirmed that another employee remembered his name and on my Grandad's death certificate in 1967 - his job is listed there.

So lots of snippets, but no proper connections and nothing particularly concrete to back most of this up.

I wonder if there is anymore info about the "Civilian Repair Organisation" in Leicestershire?

TIA

Regards,

John.

Hello,

Haven't been on this thread for a while.

With the wife of a distant Holyland cousin in NZ, we have figured out that the Holyland name, for our line, being "adopted" in 1863 (see previous entries on this thread) via Fulshaw Holyland -> Simeon Norman (Holyland) isn't as simple as we thought.

Simeon Norman was born in 1860 to mother Jane Norman. Her mother was Frances Norman Nee Holiland/Holyland b. 1811 in Barsby, Leicestershire.

Frances' parents I have as:

John Holyland b. 1770 - Ratby.
Judith Holyland Nee Parker b. 1770 - Queniborough.

The odd thing is that Frances appears to be a Holyland and not a "Holiland" (as mentioned on her marriage record).

Back to Fulshaw Holyland (1843-1919) - who married Frances' daughter Jane Norman and adopted little Simeon Norman (1860-1902) in 1863. Simeon became Simeon Norman Holyland thereafter (not sure this was an "official" adoption). Simeon was my 2 x GGD.

Fulshaw Holyland is related to John Holyland through his father, also, Fulshaw Holyland (1814-1877). Fulshaw Snr's father being William Holyland (1783-1857). William Holyland is the brother of aforementioned John Holyland b.1770.

So this John Holyland is my 5th GGD through being the father of Frances. But he is also Fulshaw Holyland Jnr's Great Uncle. So I have this strange situation of Fulshaw Jnr marrying my 3 x Great Grandma and adopting my 2 x GGD.

This is probably not 100% concrete - but it is pointing to me having a bloodline to the Desford Holylands. Previously I thought I wasn't related to the "Holyland's" at all, as Simeon was actually born to father unknown.

I think there must have been some strange goings on in the family...

And (also from wills), that William (d 1762) seems to have had a brother Thomas (also a butcher in Desford), a brother John, a baker in Dunton, and a brother Christopher of Market Bosworth, who was a publican.

Then there was another William who was a butcher and farmer in Desford, who had a brother Richarrd, also a butcher, and whose will was dated 1788;

I don't seem to have much about the next generation in Desford, probably because my lot had left there by then.

Hi Carole,

Thanks so much for putting this info up. I have all those names, but will check the dates against my own records.

Sadly most of these children died as babies or as toddlers. My Great x 2 Grandparents seemed to have a hard time of it.

John Arthur, Francis, Harold & George Harry were the only ones to survive into adulthood. Of these Harold was killed at Ypres in 1915. George Harry was my Great Grandfather.

Take care,

John.

Big family

GRO online check of Nelson/Roberts birth - all Loughborough

Francis William June 1873
John Arthur Sept 1874
Ellen June 1876
Alfred Sept 1877
Lizzie June 1879
Ernest Dec 1880
James June 1882
Harrold Sept 1884
Ethel Dec 1888
Percy June 1891
Frederick June 1893
Gladys September 1899

Hello all,

Currently researching my Dad's family, the Nelson's. Up until a few years ago I knew little about them and didn't even know about their connections to the Loughborough or Shepshed areas.

It seems that there were a lot of them in the latter village from about the 1840's onwards. My connection is through my GGD George Harry Nelson, who was born in Shepshed in 1885. During WW1 he moved to Nuneaton and served in the Warwickshire Regiment. Then in the early 20's he moved to Leicester with his wife, my Grandad and Grandad's brother.
So the Shepshed connection for my branch of the Nelsons ended around 1915.

Is there anyone out there connected to Shepshed who knows of the Nelson's there?

Many thanks in advance,


John NELSON.