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Messages - HarryBob

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1
Kent / Re: John Smith, Surgeon, Aylesford, Kent. Died 23 March 1820.
« on: Wednesday 16 September 20 05:16 BST (UK)  »
Thank you to you all for your responses.  Clearly more work to do.

Bob

Some comments.

The Smith=Hooper marriage was always a guess.  It gave me a John Smith marrying an Elizabeth.
 And before Harriet was born - c1786.  [From age at death (1845) - 59yo.]  And, the village of Ditton isn't far from Aylesford.

I'm hoping if I get any information regarding John Smith, surgeon, in Aylesford, it might provide some clarity regarding his wife and children.  Certainly at his death in 1820, there were only 2 children mentioned in his Will and likely still living - i.e. Harriet Elgar (nee Smith) & Jane Smith.

BTW:  Harriet Elgar wasn't a witness at her sisters wedding in 1831.  The witness was Hannah Elgar, Harriet's 16yo daughter.  The "Hannah" matches her signature as witness at her sister's marriage in Manila, Philippines in 1844.

2
Kent / John Smith, Surgeon, Aylesford, Kent. Died 23 March 1820.
« on: Tuesday 15 September 20 08:35 BST (UK)  »
Where might I find more information regarding John Smith, Surgeon, beyond his Will and below (**) which I found at:

https://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/research/monumental-inscriptions/aylesford

Some issues that are attracting my attention.

Was his wife Elizabeth Hooper? (= Ditton, Kent, 8 September 1784)
As far as I can tell the 2 daughters mentioned below, were the only children. Of interest is the 12-year gap between their birth years.
Who is Smith’s partner at Aylesford - a Mr Wickham?
Am I on the correct path to think about the connection: Surgeon / Royal Navy?

My principal interest is the family of his daughter Harriet Elgar.  Though, daughter Jane’s husband - John Wheeler, is an interesting fellow.

Thanks for your time.

(**)
114.   Headstone
SACRED
TO THE MEMORY OF
Mr JOHN SMITH
SURGEON OF THIS PARISH
WHO DIED MARCH 23rd 1820
AGED 62 YEARS
John Smith, died 1820, Surgeon of Aylesford. His P.C.C.C Will is dated 15th March 1820
All his estate to wife Elizabeth, including debts owing to practise, for her lifetime. After his wife's death shared equally between his daughters, Harriet Elgar and Jane Smith.
Also the sum Mr Wickham is to pay into the business at the expiration of the term of 4 years from the commencement of their partnership.
Witnesses: George Groombridge, Edward Poss and Thomas Lake. Proved 2nd October 1820

3
I don’t see any advertisements after January 1840

Neither have I. 

4
An interesting story follows until his death in 1852, at sea off Macau

It appears he was still alive in 1853, living in Hong Kong, unless there was more than 2 associated with Australia.

Given that this mentions ‘Manila’ and ‘Alexander DYCE’, I’m inclined to think it’s Henry the merchant, 2nd column:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article4789100

Jamjar

Henry Elgar died on 19 August 1852 at sea off Macau, on a voyage from Whampoa.  We have a copy made in 1859 of the Portuguese Authority's 1852 report of his death. As well as an English translation made in 1870, for the Victorian Supreme Court.

There has been discussion about the advert. Is it Rochfort trying a scam?  Or a timing issue?  Elgar died in Aug/52, this advert. is published in Jan/53.  Not a long period of time in the days of communication by letter and slow sailing ships. A voyage from HK to Sydney could take 2 or more months, depending on the route and the number of stops.  (I voted for the timing issue explanation.)

Whatever, the dispute about the Special Survey land that is mentioned, played out in the Victorian courts for pretty much the next 20 years, in one way or another.

And we haven't even touched on Elgar's involvement with Greenstone from NZ, which played a part in his death. 

And there's likely more.

Bob

5
Henry sailing Manila to Sydney, 1840: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article32186229

He was a merchant, so would explain why he was here.

He appears to be the owner of two vessels, the Anita and the Dianna.

There were 2 Henry Elgar in Australia, the merchant and the convict.

This is a new one for me:

On Wednesday, the 7th instant, at her residence in Fort- street, the lady of Henry Elgar, Esq., of a daughter;

The child died, aged 3months.

Court case, 1843, states that he ‘ does not reside within this Colony or its Depenencies’, 5th column:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article12422106

Henry Elgar the convict, who arrived 1833 on the WATERLOO, stole a cutter named BROTHERS and took to sea. A reward has been offered for him and 5 others:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article230147817

Caught and then caught again trying to escape, poor love, 1st column  ;D:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article12417287

Jamjar

Thank you for your response.  I wish I could achieve similar results to you in so short a time. 

All of what you mention we have seen and have supporting documents.  Or work in underway to obtain them - one example: the Registry documents for the Diana and Anita.

The 2 Henrys in OZ tested us for a period, until a timeline showed it was not the same character.

In 1843, Henry was resident in Manila.  Though we only have direct evidence for Manila for 1842 and 1844.

A newspaper report of a NSW Supreme Court case informs Elgar made a failed attempt to leave Manila in July 1839.

In (I think) Oct 1836, a Sydney Post Office newspaper unclaimed letters advert. stated there are 3 letters for a Henry Elgar.  I came to the view these would not likely be for convict-Henry.

Our interest now is to find when and how Henry arrived in Sydney c1835.  An obituary for Ranulph Dacre from a NZ newspaper (in the 1880s), indicated Elgar (*) worked as a clerk for Dacre, then Dacre sent Elgar to China. 
(*)The obit. talks of a Mr. Elgen.  We are certain this is Elgar, given the activities mentioned involving Dacre and Elgen. 

Again. Thank you.

Bob

6
Quote
I guess these 4 are linked by an address.  I shall chase them up tomorrow.

Yes.  24 Landport  Terrace

And I found some newspaper references to the: Southsea Preparatory establishment for young gentlemen.

Now to fill in the gap from Holborn in 1830, to Portsea in 1838.

We know daughter Hannah was in London in 1831, she was a witness at the marriage of her Aunt Jane (her mother's sister) to John Wheeler.

Thank you.

Bob

7
Is that Hannah marrying in 1843 to the American Consul at Manila?

Yes.

Hannah Elgar=Josiah Moore, 30 Aug 1842, Manila, Manila, Philippines
Then
Margaret France Elgar=Alexander Dyce, 17 Oct 1844, Manila, Manila, Philippines

Brother Henry Elgar was a witness at Margaret Frances' wedding.

Henry was in Australia, c1836. An interesting story follows until his death in 1852, at sea off Macau. 
We are trying to determine how, when and why Henry was in Australia.

Also, how, when and why Hannah and Margaret went to Manila is a question we'd like to answer.

The third sister, Harriet Smith Elgar was in Manila for a a few months in mid 1848.

Thank you for your time.

Bob

8
I don’t see any advertisements after January 1840

For the Southsea Preparatory establishment for young gentlemen?

More to do tomorrow.

Thank you.

9
06 August 1831 - Morning Post - London, London, England
Dr Alexander Stewart


21 July 1834 - Hampshire Telegraph - Portsmouth, Hampshire, England
Mrs Stevenson’s Estsblishment

29 June 1835 - Hampshire Telegraph - Portsmouth,
Mr Toovey’s School

06 February 1836 - Hampshire Advertiser
William C Engledue, MD, surgeon (but I am having trouble finding the original on the page for this one). Similar OCR for July same year


So the Elgars moved in sometime between July 1836 & July 1838


Thank you.
I guess these 4 are linked by an address.  I shall chase them up tomorrow.

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