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Hello jorose

Thanks for explaining the passengers - I'll rule them out of the running. 

Agnes Mottram was the informant on Nora's birth certificate. 

Thanks for the BMD information.  I had previously looked at them, but it's hard to know if they are the right ones!  I guess the best idea is to start with the Ivy MOTTRAM marriage to see if her father is Arthur.  Will think about Making an application for it and if that pans out, applying for the Agnes CLEE marriage certificate.  Thanks so. I have for your help.

Julie

Yes, MARKESKY definitely not a connection. 

Good thought Milly,  I will ask my contact, who I believe has the marriage certificate.  He is related to the second marriage.  I speculate he put single.  The family just had some creeping thoughts that maybe he'd been 'married' before as it seemed at 38 they would have been surprised if he hadn't, and also he often talked of his lovely golden haired Doris (your guess is as good as mine on this!  I applied and have, a birth certificate for a Doris Mottram born 1911, but mother is given as Annie Mottram, mother's help, no father.  I've also found a 'Mrs A Mottram and daughter D Mottram on passenger lists to Canada, the return trip gives their names as Annie and Dorothy - if I remember correctly - so these are probably the same people - it does throw up the question that perhaps Agnes was Annie - or more than likely no connection at all)  There is also the Irish connection.  Nora was in Belfast and married there in 1922.  I don't know where Harold was, but he married a girl from Tipperary.  Shouldn't speculate, but it does sound like the family were in Ireland.  It would explain the lack of activity on any British records.  I know now that the Moore connection occurred in 1950 when Nora married Alfred Moore in Leicester.  Feel I have tried every combination of names known to man.  Of course there is a massive possibility that Agnes was not born in Staffs at all.  I've checked workhouses, re-marriages of parents, orphanages, the 1901 census for Northern Ireland, but it is easy to miss something staring you in the face.  It is quite a conundrum!

Julie

Hi again Claire

Sorry for radio silence, gardening followed by exhaustion.   I have checked military records before, the Arthur Mottram I discovered lived at Freshelton Street and was deemed 'mentally defiant' and discharged (probably saved his life).  By word of mouth, I know that 'my' Arthur served in Ireland (?is this the link, did the family all go to Ireland)  Iceland (didn't even know that was important in WW1) Germany and France.  He was badly wounded in France, bayoneted in the leg and suffered shrapnel wound to the head.  He never fully recovered and had pain in his head for the rest of his days.  We can't even imagine the horrors seen and experienced.  On a brighter note a contact on Ancestry found a marriage between Nora, surname Russell or Bruce, to Frederick C Moore, 1950 Leicester.  She was insatiable!

Julie