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Messages - colee

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Europe / Re: 1900s Austrian records
« on: Saturday 20 June 20 16:59 BST (UK)  »
Thank you Roy and Mowsehowse

Yes I have found GenTeam a very useful resource, I have found important leads through it - ie one yesterday with a marriage between Ernst Friedmann and Lizzi Weiss in 1933, I'm now looking for the actual register entry on Family Search, but I think it might not be accessible on line. I looked through the book for 1932-34 at various synagogues in districts I and II, but the Schiffschule marriages for 1933 were missing, they must be in another book which seems to be only on microfiche or locked.

I also found Miksa's marriage and divorce on GenTeam a while back, then found the register entries in the same way, as they were registered under the same synagogue, Schiffschule in district II. But this is the last time that I can find Miksa in any records. I know that Margit went to New York in 1936 and died there in 1976. But I have no idea where Miksa went after that. He didn't go back to live with his young daughter in Budapest (she was born in 1914) who was being brought up by her grandparents (her mother, Miksa's 2nd wife, died in the Spanish flu in 1918).

Miksa was born in Budapest, he lived in Debrecen at some point when he married his first wife in 1908 but they divorced soon after. He was in Budapest with his 2nd wife in 1911 who died in 1918 as mentioned above, then married Margit Friedmann his 3rd wife in 1924, divorcing in 1929. He was some sort of electrical engineer. That's all I know about him from the records.

By the way, the names you mention Roy are known relatives. I'm not sure where the 1932 date came from, but I don't think it's correct.

Maybe my best option is to look in the Red Cross ITS tracing service docs, I don't think they're on line but accessible in London at the Weiner Library. Any other ideas of course I'd be very grateful!

Many thanks


Sandra and RJ, your help over the last few days has set off a major breakthrough. Armed with the info about Margit living in Far Rockaway and her close links with the Mantel family, I posted a question on the Jewish genealogical society message board, and someone who knows the family put me in touch with Jeanette's son in Jerusalem who has now contacted me. He also knew my great aunt Margit and hopefully will be able to tell me more about her.

This is a HUGE step forward in my research and has started to fill in one of the big gaps, although there are still plenty more really big ones.

Thank you again Sandra and RJ, your help in unlocking these family mysteries is so incredibly valuable.

Hopefully I will now also be able to find out from Jean's son what happened to Kalman and the other 2 brothers who I never located in the records. Maybe I'll also find out something about my great uncle Miksa, that would be an even bigger prize!!


yes - Weiss/Yates/Butterworth/Smith

wow thank you Sandra for the Wellman info. I will have to see if they lived near the Bloom (Jeanette's) family who also moved to Florida, Boca Raton

Yes thank you RJ, that's so interesting. Herman was an influential rabbi I think, and his son Hugo even more so. I have found numerous references to Hugo on that newspaper website.

Hugo, wife Edith Maybush and son Jonathan Moses Israel Mantel emigrated to Israel in the 1950s, and I think all died there although I couldn't find the relevant Israeli documents, I'm not sure they're accessible?

I should look up Mantel Manor on and see how long it functioned as a meeting place.

Their son Louis, Hugo's brother, was a Hebrew teacher in New York and settled in the orthodox area of Far Rockaway where my great uncle's ex-wife Margit was also living when she died in 1967 - as Sandra found out yesterday.

Louis and Elizabeth were the only children to stay in the New York area. Renee Mantel Schwartz died in Las Vegas, I don't know yet if she had any family but I think she had 2 husbands, Percy Schwartz and then Morris Cooper. There were also 2 other cousins I couldn't locate. Irene's sister Wilma Friedmann married Arthur Fischl and they had 2 children, Erica/Erika and Hans Gerhart Fishcl but I'm not sure yet what happened to them.

Bingo brilliant thank you so much, yes that's got to be them. I think Wellman might have been one of the husband's middle names.

Such a sense of completeness to see people in the records when they seemed to have disappeared.

thank you so much for your help

Brilliant! It seems they did move to 913 Sutter Ave then.

Yes that seems right for Kalman, I have 29 April 1897 but it must be the same.

What is the best approach when census searches don't initially retrieve the records you expect should be there.

I tried to look up the 1940 census information for Margit Friedmann/Weiss but couldn't find her. It is most likely she would have been in New York. Her ship crossing document in 1936 lists sister Irene living at Sutter Avenue as the known contact in New York. By 1940 I guess she would have moved to her own place but it didn't come up on my search. 

It seems like Sutter Avenue was the original address for the family in New York. In the 1925 Census Margit's sister Irene and husband Herman Mantel were at number 938 Sutter Avenue with all 5 of their children (Hugo, Elizabeth, Jeanette, Louis and Renee). They were also all at home there still in the 1930 Census. in 1940 Herman and Irene were still at Sutter Avenue but may have moved to number 918 which they owned, although this could be a typing error. Louis was the only child at home with them at that point (aged 25), as was Irene's father Isaac who came over in 1938 after the death of his wife in Vienna, aged 81.

I also couldn't find one of Louis' sisters, Elizabeth, in the 1940 census. She married Daniel von Kameniczky in 1937 but doesn't seem to show up on an initial search for 1940.

There is also an uncle who is proving difficult to find in the census records. Irene's brother Kalman Friedmann came to New York in May 1935 listing Herman at 938 Sutter Ave as his known relative. But again, he doesn't show up in the 1940 census from an initial look. During the war his draft registration document shows he was living in Pittsburgh, he was a photographer working at the Bachrach studio there; and then another address in Washington, North Carolina. But I don't know where he went after that.

I would be so appreciative of any help in finding these records, and also knowing the other routes for pinning down a census record if it doesn't show up by a normal search.

Thank you so very much

It was Margit's nephew Louis that also lived at Far Rockaway, this was his address from a US Social Security record:

Louis Mantel
Birth Date:   11 Aug 1914
Address:   1014 Neilson St Apt 5c
Residence Place:   Far Rockaway, New York, USA
Zip Code:   11691-5022

He died in October 1996.

Yesssss that's her, amazing, thank you!!

I will have to trawl back through some of the records I've been looking at today, someone else in the family was living at Far Rockaway.

Inching very very slowly towards Miksa maybe....

Huge thanks

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