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Messages - MattD30

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 ... 285
1
The Common Room / Re: Catholic Birth/Baptism
« on: Wednesday 20 January 21 01:37 GMT (UK)  »
I've just made an interesting discovery after looking at the census returns again.

In 1861 John and Catherine Donovan were living at 4 Goodmans Stile, in Whitechapel. He was apparently 23 and she was apparently 19 [their ages seem to vary by a year each census]. Both say they were born in Ireland whereas their first son Florence [transcribed as Lawrence] and daughter Mary are recorded as being born in London  [both were born in Whitechapel].

Also with them is a visitor "Catherine Ryan" aged 40 who is a widow and was also born in Ireland. It's possible she was related to Jeremiah Ryan.

Matt

2
The Common Room / Re: Catholic Birth/Baptism
« on: Wednesday 20 January 21 00:53 GMT (UK)  »

I know that he had a sister named Mary Ann born in 1861 and one of the sponsors on her baptism was Jeremiah Ryan which is interesting as one of the witnesses at John Donovan and Catherine Flynn's marriage [which took place at the RC church of St Mary & St Michael in Feb 1858] was a Jeremiah Ryan. Was he related?

Jeremiah Ryan may have been a relative or a friend. For relatives, I'd think first of brother-in-law (or future brother-in-law), half/step-brother or cousin. If the parents had moved from their homes in Ireland they may not have had relatives near where they lived. As he was a marriage witness and a baptism sponsor he was presumably someone close to John & Catherine Donovan. Have you looked for him on a census?
Who were Florence's baptism sponsors? The name reminds me of the character Florrie Knox in the novel and TV series  "The Irish R.M.".
I also have people with different birthdates in baptism register and birth register, including my grandmother. A family known to my granddad didn't manage to get information in birth registers to match baptism register for any of their children; different dates of birth were minor errors for them; one son had a change of first name between baptism and birth registration and another had 2 birthdays, 3 months apart, in different years as he was born in November, registered first by his mother and then by his father.   ;D

Hi

Thanks for that info. I don't think I have been able to find Jeremiah on the census but it's worth another look. The other witness was Joanna Ryan who I presume was related to Jeremiah.

John was born in about 1837 or 1838 and his father Florence was apparently "deceased" by the time of the marriage. I'm currently trying to see if I can track John down as he may have been born in Ireland.

Matt

3
The Common Room / Re: Catholic Birth/Baptism
« on: Tuesday 19 January 21 12:29 GMT (UK)  »
I have seen quite a few of these anomalies. The date of birth on the RC baptism is usually more reliable as in most cases the family would get the child baptised before registering the birth. As already mentioned, the family would want to avoid a late registration of the birth and they might give a different date of birth to avoid any complications.


Blue

Thanks for confirming this. It makes me wonder if I should check the Catholic registers for more members of the family.

Also these baptism registers have revealed some more children for John Donovan and Catherine Flynn whom I don't have any knowledge of from either the census or birth certificates.

Perhaps I should check the whole family in case I have more dates of birth wrong lol!

Matt

4
The Common Room / Re: Catholic Birth/Baptism
« on: Thursday 14 January 21 16:19 GMT (UK)  »
It's possible they left it past the 14 (or 21) days (I now can't remember) to register the birth & changed the date, this can be checked against the actual date it was registered?

This is quite a common occurrence  :)

Annie

Hi Annie

Many thanks for that.

Matt

5
The Common Room / Catholic Birth/Baptism
« on: Thursday 14 January 21 01:38 GMT (UK)  »
Hi I'm not sure where this should go so I'm posting it here but feel free to move it to a better board.

I've just discovered the baptism of my 2x great grandfather Florence Donovan in the records of Catholic Baptisms on Findmypast. I know it's him as it has both his parents named on it and I already know those names.

Florence and three of his siblings were baptised at the RC church of St Mary & St Michael in Stepney which is where their parents married in the same year.

The strange thing is that the date of birth on this record is before the date of birth I have on his civil registration birth certificate. According to that he was born on 13 September 1858 [the informant was his mother Catherine Donovan - nee Flynn]. Yet the baptism record says he was born 6 September 1858 and baptised 7 September 1858. It also tells us his parents were John Donovan and Catherine [Catherina] Flynn so I'm pretty sure it's him.

Could the date on the registered certificate be wrong?

I know that he had a sister named Mary Ann born in 1861 and one of the sponsors on her baptism was Jeremiah Ryan which is interesting as one of the witnesses at John Donovan and Catherine Flynn's marriage [which took place at the RC church of St Mary & St Michael in Feb 1858] was a Jeremiah Ryan. Was he related?

Can anyone shed any light on this?

Matt

6
I've just discovered that as well as Dennis Sullivan marrying Margaret Haley in 1861 there is a marriage in 1868 for an Edward Sullivan and Margaret Ann Haley at the same church. So we could be looking at two different Sullivan families when looking at the birth indexes. Not every Sullivan listed with HALEY as the mother's maiden name may be from the family of Dennis and Margaret.

Matt

7
Hi
A possible for John in St George in the East in the 1881 census, just before his marriage
piece 458 folio 56 page 44
John Sullivan, Brother, 19, Lighterman
He is with three sisters, Kate, 22 (the head), Margaret, 16, and Rachel, 15.
All born St George E.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27S-VVQJ

There is a marriage at St Thomas Stepney, 14 Oct 1861
Denis Sullivan, Bachelor, Cork Cutter, father John Sullivan, Porter
+
Margaret Haley, Spinster, father Michael Haley, Coalwipper?
Both full age, residence Stepney
Image on FamilySearch!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L96G-GV65

Possible birth registration of John, first quarter 1862?
SULLIVAN, JOHN       
Mother's Maiden Surname: HALEY 
GRO Reference: 1862  M Quarter in STEPNEY  Volume 01C  Page 481

There is a Margaret
SULLIVAN, MARGARET       
Mother's Maiden Surname: HALEY 
GRO Reference: 1866  M Quarter in SAINT GEORGE IN THE EAST  Volume 01C  Page 470

I think Margaret may have married at St Thomas in 1889, to William Galvin. Father Dennis Sullivan a Cork Cutter.
Witness Rachel Riddle, possibly her younger sister (marriage to John Riddle in 1887, St George in the East?)

So Kate in 1881 is older than that 1861 marriage!

Possible family of John in the 1861 census??
St George in the East
piece 281 folio 54 pages 31 & 32
John Sullivan 58 Dock Lab, born Ireland
Elizabeth Sullivan 50 Wales Swansea
Dennis Sullivan 22 Cork Cutter Middx Shadwell
Then 5 more children over two census pages
Images on FamilySearch
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMW-Q3T1-P

Hi

Thanks for those. I had come across the the 1861 census but not the other bits so that explains why I couldn't fit everything together.

With regards to Kate, she's 22 in 1881 making her born in 1859 and on the 1861 census she appears as Catherine aged 5 which makes her born in about 1856. Obviously I assume Catherine and Kate are the same person as the other people seem consistent and I've got other relatives who alternate between names on records.

Of to see what I can find on these people now.

Many Thanks
Matt

8
Hi Matt
This is interesting, because the amazing aghadowey just mentioned a use of those two names for one person tonight.
Hope they won't mind!
Son of William McKay & wife Mary (Daniel & Denis sometimes used interchangeably)
Daniel/Denis McKay (c1835-1897), car driver, m.(1863) Letitia Davi(d)son (c1844-1902).

I really hadn't thought of it before.
But I imagined Denis might be Dionysius in latin, and on looking it up found that is so!
John

Hi John

I've found it useful to remember not to stick too strictly to names and to be aware that if people had two first names they didn't always use the first one!

I think I may have found the other kids.

Matt

9
Hi
A possible for John in St George in the East in the 1881 census, just before his marriage
piece 458 folio 56 page 44
John Sullivan, Brother, 19, Lighterman
He is with three sisters, Kate, 22 (the head), Margaret, 16, and Rachel, 15.
All born St George E.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27S-VVQJ

There is a marriage at St Thomas Stepney, 14 Oct 1861
Denis Sullivan, Bachelor, Cork Cutter, father John Sullivan, Porter
+
Margaret Haley, Spinster, father Michael Haley, Coalwipper?
Both full age, residence Stepney
Image on FamilySearch!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L96G-GV65

Possible birth registration of John, first quarter 1862?
SULLIVAN, JOHN       
Mother's Maiden Surname: HALEY 
GRO Reference: 1862  M Quarter in STEPNEY  Volume 01C  Page 481

There is a Margaret
SULLIVAN, MARGARET       
Mother's Maiden Surname: HALEY 
GRO Reference: 1866  M Quarter in SAINT GEORGE IN THE EAST  Volume 01C  Page 470

I think Margaret may have married at St Thomas in 1889, to William Galvin. Father Dennis Sullivan a Cork Cutter.
Witness Rachel Riddle, possibly her younger sister (marriage to John Riddle in 1887, St George in the East?)

So Kate in 1881 is older than that 1861 marriage!

Possible family of John in the 1861 census??
St George in the East
piece 281 folio 54 pages 31 & 32
John Sullivan 58 Dock Lab, born Ireland
Elizabeth Sullivan 50 Wales Swansea
Dennis Sullivan 22 Cork Cutter Middx Shadwell
Then 5 more children over two census pages
Images on FamilySearch
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMW-Q3T1-P

I've just been looking for the christenings on the siblings mentioned on the 1881 census when they're living with Kate.

In particular I have been looking for the two youngest, Margaret and Rachel. This looks like it is Margaret's christening which seems to have taken place and St Mary's & St Michael's church, Commercial Rd, Stepney. The image can be seen here:

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=S2%2FGBPRS%2FROMCATH%2FWESTMINSTER%2FCOMMERCIAL_B_1863-1867%2F00501&parentid=PRS%2FROMCATH%2FBAP%2FWESTM%2F0056306

What I found interesting in both the transcript [on Findmypast] and the original image itself is that her father's name is down as "Danielis" [possibly a Latinised version of Daniel]. Margaret is recorded as "Margareta" and her surname is down as Healey which differs from Haley but which I assume is the same person.

Matt

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