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Messages - phil57

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Worth searching local newspapers for his name as well, just in case there is a mention of the water polo team match results anywhere, or possibly a court report where he gave evidence.

As he wasn't a full time policeman there may not be any records.   

There may not be even if he was full time. But you won't know unless you ask. Some of these force museums and historical societies can be very helpful, with retired officers who are keen to assist and go the extra mile to try and help. Others less so, and I'm not familiar with GMP, but it has to be worth an enquiry. Where else would you suggest looking?

It would be worth contacting the Greater Manchester Police Museum and Archives. No certainty that they will be able to help, but if they can't it's very doubtful that anyone else would have any records, other than anything that may already be in the family.

The Common Room / Re: Why so much Scottish DNA?
« on: Wednesday 10 April 24 16:27 BST (UK)  »
DNA Communities assigned to Ancestry DNA tests are separate from ethnicity and use a completely different method of determination.

Ethnicity regions are determined by direct examination of the subject's DNA and comparison of segments having similarities to those in the DNA of people in the reference panels for various ethnicity regions, which are believed to be common to populations from those areas who are not necessarily genetically related by descent from common individuals. Its aim is to estimate regional ethnic origins from around 500 to several thousand years ago.

DNA communities are determined via an algorithm similar in some ways to Thrulines, which identifies common ancestors amongst all of the people who have taken a DNA test with Ancestry, and trawls through their family trees looking for communities shared between those matches' ancestors. It aims to identify much more recent locations where genetic cousins lived around the same period of time, as would be expected with information derived from family trees, which in most cases is unlikely to be more than 500 years old due to the limitations of paper records and similar evidence on which most of the information in those trees is (or should be) based.

Hence I have no North American ethnicity at all, but I am associated to two DNA communities in the USA. Neither I or any of my direct ancestors have lived anywhere on the American continent, but three half cousins, children of my GGF by a different marriage to his later marriage to my GGM, did emigrate to the US from the NW of England, and have between them more DNA tested descendants  by far, who are matches to me, than any of my other lines of descent. Hence Ancestry attaches me to those communities.

Having said that, other communities in England and Wales have recently been split into more localised areas and do show a pretty good degree of accuracy, again perhaps not all that surprising as they are determined from locations found in my trees and those of my genetic cousins.

So Thrulines looks for common individuals and lines of descent in the trees of DNA matches. DNA communities looks for common locations in the same trees.

The Common Room / Re: Why so much Scottish DNA?
« on: Wednesday 10 April 24 09:16 BST (UK)  »
But don't dismiss ethnicity out of hand look at the DNA ethnicity breakdown now differentiates between lowland + highland Scottish

My Celtic amounts changed over the decade  since testing my DNA 

 ethnicity got more precise Cornwell is now recognised as having specific regional traits too

Aren't these regional breakdowns "communities" rather then ethnicity regions?

The Common Room / Re: Why so much Scottish DNA?
« on: Tuesday 09 April 24 16:57 BST (UK)  »
I have some Scottish ethnicity on my paternal line according to Ancestry. I have no known direct ancestors from Scotland, but my direct paternal line goes back to Kent also for as far back as I have been able to trace it (mid to late 17th century).

But my paternal surname apparently derives from people in north west France around the Brittany/Normandy border - one of the areas of Celtic habitation included in Ancestry's definition of Scotland for ethnicity purposes.

Whether that is the explanation, who knows. Ethnicity estimates are what they say - estimates derived from data which has itself been estimated to lesser or greater extents. I find it can be useful as a comparison tool when looking at DNA matches who have tested with the same company. Other than that,  I concentrate on genetically related DNA matches, which are indisputable above low match lengths, and far more useful in my opinion than ethnicity estimates which may or may not be correct, but in either case may deviate substantially from the headline percentages ascribed to them.

The Common Room / Re: Why so much Scottish DNA?
« on: Tuesday 09 April 24 09:55 BST (UK)  »
My dads DNA has come back as 29% Scottish,but the only line i can find that goes North of the Border is a single 7xgreat grandfather born in Kelso in 1659.Would that be enough to provide that level of Scottish DNA,or is it likely ive got something wrong,or things are not as they seem from the records.
Any thoughts appreciated.


There is a link named "Confused by your Scottish results?" or similar on the Ancestry page showing your father's Scottish ethnicity results. Have you read the page it links to?

Additionally, all a particular ethnicity allocation indicates is that regions have been found in the tester's DNA which are similar to regions generally found in populations in that area (i.e. the regions that Ancestry refer to as Scottish in your father's case, which does not solely relate to Scotland). It can indicate that some of your father's ancestors came from the same region as other migrants who are now most commonly found in the regions Ancestry labels as Scotland, which is not identical to the geographic area. But his ancestors may not have ever actually set foot in the geographic country of Scotland.

I think if you read the link I refer to above, it states that a high proportion of English people have at least some percentage of "Scottish" ethnicity in their DNA, irrespective of having no identifiable connection to that region.

Nevertheless, a 29% indication is not insubstantial, but again it is important to realise that the 29% figure stated is an estimate derived from a range. If you drill down through the ethnicity estimates given by Ancestry on the relevant web pages, you can view the range from which the 29% ESTIMATE is derived. Sometimes those ranges encompass a variation from zero to a higher figure. In such cases, Ancestry are saying that they estimate 29% Scottish ethnicity, but that the actual percentage could be higher or lower, within the stated range. And if the range encompasses zero, then there may not actually be any connection at all.

This is not relevant to this enquiry, but the police certainly are able to find some types of information that we can't, for example my husband recently received a letter from the Force Crime Reduction department of our county police, warning him that cars of our particular make and model are particularly susceptible to the  theft of catalytic convertors and giving him advice on how to keep our car safe from theft. The letter must have been sent to all relevant car owners in our area (Devon & Cornwall). This must have taken some co-operation with the DVLA, but I guess they are frequently in contact with them when tracing ownership of cars.

No need. They just search the Police National Computer which is continuously updated with DVLA records. A relatively simple search for vehicles of a specific make and model having registered keepers in the specified area will provide that information.

The Common Room / Re: Beware ThruLines
« on: Wednesday 20 March 24 18:35 GMT (UK)  »
Although there are numerous incorrect trees that proliferate by copying on Ancestry and elsewhere. I had a similar scenario involving an elderly GG uncle who appeared to have lived in Somerset all his life. His wife had died when he was in his early 80s, and a number of trees showed him in Australia and being buried there, but I had found him in a census in Somerset a couple of years after his wife had died, living with one of his daughters and her husband in a nearby parish. So I couldn't believe that a widower of 80 plus years would have upped sticks and gone to Australia and discounted the trees out of hand. But I couldn't find his burial.

Some time later though, I found an entry in the back of the parish register containing the record of his wife's burial, stating that he had approached the vicar and stated the he intended moving to live with his daughter in the nearby parish, but wished when the time came to be buried with is wife, and hoped that as a lifelong parishioner up to that point he would be allowed to be buried alongside her without any fee due to having moved away. In itself, that note just reinforced my thoughts that the other trees must be wrong.

But at the end of that note, the vicar had added a one line addendum "Emigrated to Australia" and the date. He was I think 86 at the time. It proved me wrong anyway!

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