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Messages - phil57

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1910 is not that many generations back. You need to fully research and record your matches trees at least that far back, in exactly the same way that you researched your own. If that is where the connection lies, you should find it without too much trouble. Hopefully your matches can give you some names and birth/death dates to get you started. If they have their own trees that they are happy to share with you even better, but don't just take their trees or information at face value. Work your way back through them checking everything to your own satisfaction so that you are sure of the facts. You may find you agree with them, but having checked, at least you will know for sure.

I have a copy of a Tithe Rent Apportionment and Corn-Rent Conversion map, which are causing me some confusion, and wondered if anyone can explain please?

The parishes concerned are Charlton Adam and Charlton Mackrell in Somerset. My understanding is that the apportionments and maps were produced as a result of the Tithe Commutation Act 1836. There is a typed legal preamble attached to the front of the apportionment for these two parishes, which appears to deal with inclosure awards and is signed and dated 1810. "See Corn Rent Conversion" has been handwritten at the top of each and every page of this document.

Then the apportionments follow, and list various lands and property allocated to individuals within the two parishes.

A further document is appended, which confirms the award of a rent-charge in lieu of tithes, and is dated 14th December 1850. It doesn't contain any details of individuals or properties.

Now, this is where I start getting confused: The description for the apportionments in the TNA catalogue states that until 1936, subsequent altered apportionments were added after the original apportionments, and this particular document is ascribed in their catalogue with a date of 3rd September 1920.

The associated map is described as a Corn-rent conversion map rather than a tithe map, and the catalogue explains that "a few of the maps in this series are in fact corn rent conversion maps, dating from between 1862 and 1936; they record conversion of existing corn rents generated by the enclosure process into tithe rentcharge". The map for these two parishes is dated 1921 in the TNA catalogue.

OK, I understand that. However, the apportionment document does not appear to have any alterations or appendages, other than that a number of handwitten letters against many of the entries - usually an "A" or occasionally a "B" or "N". Many of the "A"'s also have a tick against them.

There are "code-descriptions" provided for the apportionments, but none of these single letter amendments are in the list. The nearest is for the code "AA" meaning altered apportionment, but nothing that could remotely equate to a "B" or "N".

But a number of the individuals listed as proprietors of premises and lands shown in the apportionment document, had died prior to 1836, let alone 1850. Just two examples - Edmund Gapper, Vicar of Charlton Adam, died in 1809. Richard Ford, the Rector of Charlton Mackrell, died in 1817.

My main interest in the record relates to my Gx4 GF. He died in 1838. His eldest son had the same name, and died in 1840.

So on the face of it, the first date that applies to the document is 1810 (from the legal preamble). Yet even if I take that as the date from which the apportionment entries relate, Rev. Gapper, whose list of attributed lands and properties extends over three pages, was already dead.

So what date can I assume for the ownership of the lands and properties listed in the apportionment? I can infer that the list relating to my ancestor is referring to my Gx4GF and not his son, because I have other evidence that some of the lands attributed to him in the apportionment were sold by him to another party in 1824 and 1825.

There are no amendments in the document either indicating that he was no longer the proprietor of those lands, nor ascribing them to the subsequent purchaser.

So I'm confused as to the actual date the documents relate to, and hence would be accurate for. The indication that they relate to the 1836 Tithe Commutation Act doesn't tie in with the prior deaths of several individuals listed, nor with the actual ownership of certain parcels of land that had changed hands before that date. So where do the 1850 document and the TNA ascribed dates in 1920/21 come into it?

The Common Room / Re: Most unusual or unpleasant occupation
« on: Friday 21 January 22 20:49 GMT (UK)  »
No! I see your logic. I meant about sewage discharge into a riverů

 ;D ;D ;D ;)

The Common Room / Re: Most unusual or unpleasant occupation
« on: Friday 21 January 22 20:28 GMT (UK)  »
There is something nasty happening again,on TV news this evening !

Saw that. They've denied it, of course!

You mean Boris was on TV again? >:(

The Common Room / Re: Most unusual or unpleasant occupation
« on: Friday 21 January 22 18:18 GMT (UK)  »
Spare a thought for the residents of Barking, who had several million tons of sewage flushed into the Thames from the London northern outflow every day. The theory was that it was flushed into the river at high tide and would be carried out into the North Sea as the tide receded. To some extent it was, but most of it came back in again with the next tide. Action was only taken when the smell started affecting MPs sitting in Parliament. Imaging what it was like for the Barking residents by then :o

I was surprised to discover that a great deal of London's "night soil" was still being loaded into ships and taken out to be dumped in the North sea until 1998.

The Common Room / Re: GRO Certified Copy (BMD) Reference Number (e.g. MXJ 137949)
« on: Tuesday 18 January 22 23:01 GMT (UK)  »
I'm not an insider, but I did make an enquiry with GRO a couple of years ago relating to whether it was possible to find out when and who a certificate copy had been issued to from that "serial" number. The reply that I eventually got (the enquiry was escalated as the department that initially deal with certificate enquires didn't know the answer) was that although it is a uniquely generated number, it is not recorded anywhere and GRO have no way of tracing any information about a certificate or its issue from that number.

I suspect it is probably useful for organisations that require a certified copy of a certificate to be produced for various reasons, to be able to record a unique reference number in case of any future doubt etc. as to which copy of a certificate they actually had sight of, but surely for our purposes the unique references for the record as a source, that enable us to identify and trace it again in the future should it be necessary, are the GRO index number and the registration district/sub-district or parish, year and entry number that appear on the original record - of which the certificate is after all only a copy.

The Common Room / Re: TNA Copying Service
« on: Saturday 15 January 22 14:40 GMT (UK)  »
I had similar a few weeks ago, but clearing my browser cache fixed it for me. Aree you closing and restarting your browser after clearing the cache? If it still doesn't work, try again using your browser's incognito mode (InPrivate mode for Edge I believe, Incognito in Chrome). Using that mode doesn't save browsing data between sessions and may allow you to proceed to the order form. If you still get the same message, try just after they re-open for orders in the morning - after 10 or 11 a.m. I think, from memory.

Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: Iron Foundry in Manchester
« on: Saturday 15 January 22 09:26 GMT (UK)  »
Thanks Ray. Sorry for not indicating the year I was looking at, but your map was very helpful nonetheless.

Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: Iron Foundry in Manchester
« on: Friday 14 January 22 15:37 GMT (UK)  »
That's it Shaun. Thank you :)

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