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Messages - TheWhuttle

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Sorry to hear of your sad loss, such must have been devastating.
[We've lost a great aunt, then our Dad, then an aunt, and now Dad's cousin in Canada.
 Quite a year.  Huge amounts of potential verbal knowledge lost forever.
 You just had to sit them down together, turn on the recorder, and wait for the sparks!]

Genealogical mess?!!!
You are one of the most prolific/clear contributors to this conference.
Power to your elbow there in your transcription efforts Sir!
[Quote: Gustav MAHLER "Men will have to work a long time at cracking the nuts that I’m shaking down from the tree for them."]

Scribbles from hectic/strenuous/inspired scenarios are always much to be appreciated.
[c.f. H. Rider HAGGARD (correspondent during the Zulu Wars, involving many Ulster men).
   Later, super-inspired while writing his famous novel "She":
       "It came faster than my poor aching hand could set it down."
 Those of us who have struggled (physically/optically) with the Tenison GROVES archives in Belfast,
 and the "tombstones" (Will/Deed extracts in Dublin) know the worth of an occasional twiddle of the pen ...]

Much can be learned from scribble diaries.

When the great Mathematical Geometer Bernard RIEMANN (founder of the generic construction that underlies the formulation of General Relativity by Albert EINSTEIN) died, his colleagues scarpered round to his house a.s.a.p. just managing to stop his house-keeper from throwing all his "scrap" papers on the fire in her attempt to make the place tidy for visits by mourners.

Much (though not all) of his unpublished work was saved, some with tentative embryonic new ideas, others with emphatically proved rejections of useless avenues to follow, etc.
Also there were essential lessons to be learnt by his approach to problems/proofs.

The ethos of the time was that formally unpublished material was NOT to be made public.
Such idea was reputation driven, perhaps hinting that the author was somehow less than super-human.

This idea is likely to derive from the motto of his great mentor
(the last Poly-Math) Carl Friedrich GAUSS's:
  "Pauca sed Matura"   [Trans. "Few but Ripe"]

I encountered a choir outside our small ancient church one day recently.
Engaging with them, I mentioned that I had also been a chorister once.
Their immediate response:
  "What do you mean once?  Once a chorister, always a chorister!"

[I asked them what they had been singing - oratorios by BRUCKNER.
 So, I gave them my rendition of the start of his 7th Symphony.
 In my view, the most beautiful/inspiring opening to any work of music.]

Think that same applies to family history researchers.
  "Once a genealogist, always a genealogist!"

Keep your pecker up, and let us know what help you need anytime.

Capt. Jock

P.S. Very interested in the 1896 Francis TURNLY marriage, but perhaps best broached with you separately, through some separate scribbles.


You could consider donating your (obviously copious) research scribble diaries in to the safe custody of PRONI/UHF/NIFHS?

Perhaps not Sentry Hill.
[We've just learnt that "Mr. McKINNEY" (aka Wesley BONAR), having been on furlough for a long time while the venue was closed to the public, has accepted an offer to "retire" from his long role there. Sad, sad, sad.

Capt. Jock

Antrim / Re: John Wilson (1785-1873) and Jane Lennon (1792-1843) (Ballylaggan)
« on: Saturday 17 April 21 17:28 BST (UK)  »
Hi Allister,

Twins can be classified in to two varieties:

1) IDENTICAL - such caused by an "accident" of nature.

The development process (mitosis) hiccups at a very early stage, producing two embryos from one egg.
Each contains an identical set of genes, though such may then develop (slightly) differently.

There is NO tendency for this to happen down family lines.
So, as such, it is NOT a genealogical trait.

2) NON-IDENTICAL - such caused by the release of multiple eggs immediately prior to the time of fertilisation.

This can result in multiple quite-different embryos.
Such IS a genealogical trend, carried down the female line (obviously).
[Some women are very prone to it, and pass such down to their female offspring.]

N.B. Female children are born with their full (finite) life's-complement of eggs (for "their" creation of the next generation) already aboard.

Such eggs are "created" while the (yet to be born) "future mother" is still within the womb of her own mother (aka "future granny").

There have been studies conducted on such, particularly in the context of the Irish Famine.
[How did Granny's experience of deprivation during such, affect the future bodies/lives/life-expectancy of her grandchildren.  Interesting /scary stuff!]


Identical siblings are much less common than non-identical ones.

The upshot for your research is therefore that, if you reckon there were many "twins" within your family's descent chain, they are much more likely to have been non-identical ones.

As such, they will follow the female lines of descent.
Such will thus be more likely to NOT having WILSON as their surname.
[Unless there was an element of cousins marrying ...]

Capt Jock  (an accident of nature, yet still "beloved of God"!)

Antrim / Re: Allen Bell, b.1840/41 Crumlin, Co Antrim
« on: Saturday 27 March 21 16:13 GMT (UK)  »

Yep, thats right.
(vol.32 p33 as above)

Guess it was known as "DALWAY's other bawn".
[Probably to stop him being being jibed with "DALWAY ... has only got one bawn".]


Perhaps I was a tad harsh on old Phil of TT (who we all love of course!).
[I was only reporting what I heard from a colleague who had worked with him.
 They, the other diggers, inspiringly thought that they performed best when he was outstanding in his (own) field.]

His accent would have fitted in well around Ballynure.
[Many of Elizabeth I's venturous captains hailed from the West Country (of England).
 Such "twang" underlies the Belfast patois to this day.
  e.g. Francis DRAKE, Walter RALEIGH & John CHICHESTER,
 then his successor, his brother Arthur CHICHESTER.
 The latter was granted extensive lands around Belfast.
 His descendants became Lords Donegall.
 Sir Francis CHICHESTER, first solo circumnavigator of the World,
 hails from this family stable, near Barnstable in Devon.

 [Official title in the peerage being "Inishowen and Fisherwick".
  This latter deriving from the SKEFFINGTON family, Lords Masserene and Ferrard,
  who'd married in to the CLOTWORTHYs at Antrim Castle.
  Lord Donegall bought their estate/mansion in Staffordshire,
  in the run up to the 1801 Union of the British/Irish Parliaments.
  In order to sit in the British Parliament you had to own a "seat" within its lands.

  The expense in buying/developing this Fisherwick holding bankrupted the Donegalls.
  Their estate office / hunting lodge at Doagh (near Ballyclare) is named after it.

  Interestingly, there is a small peninsula in Inishowen named Doagh.
  Inishowen is the large peninsula lying to the West of Lough Foyle & beyond in Co. Donegal.
  The CHICHESTERs acquired lands there after Cahir O'DOHERTY's disastrous uprising,
  becoming the largest land holders in Ireland.]

 Ian Campbell Ross Jonathan SWIFT, the famous author of Gulliver's Travels,
 started his "church" career as a prebendary priest minding the cure of Kilroot
 preaching at the small (now ruined, CoI) church at Ballynure.
 His father, a lawyer, a Royalist in the Civil War, hailed from Goodrich, Herefordshire.
 He scarpered to Dublin to escape persecution, dying there just before his only son was born in late 1667.]

Capt. Jock

Antrim / Re: The Huguenots - and the surname Quirey
« on: Tuesday 09 March 21 01:03 GMT (UK)  »
Hi again Kathy-9,

Watched a TV programme about Marie CURIE last night.
[The first ever person to be awarded two Nobel prizes, in different branches of Science.]

CURIE was her married name, adopted from her husband Pierre.
His family were Hugenots.
[She was Polish.]

Both were lifted from the rural family grave and were reburied within The Pantheon in Paris.
[After checking that they weren't too radioactive so as to pose a public risk!]


However, I think that I may have found you a much stronger candidate for the origins of your QUIREY surname, with good resonances with the alternative spellings encountered in Ireland.

It is "Le QUÉRÉ".    Meaning: "The Cobbler".

[So a good honest feet-on-the-ground "artisanal/occupational" name.]

Apparently, French surnames beginning "QU" are strongly indicative of origins from Brittany.
[Though not exclusively so ...]

Many Hugenots escaped through the Channel Islands.
[e.g. Saumarez DUBORDIEU, strapped to the back of his 90-year-old great-grandfather.]

Found plenty for you to chomp on amongst the residents of Jersey!

Now, all I have to do is find my mis-filed copious research notes ...
[Thought that I had better update you from memory in the meantime.]

Back again soon!

Capt. Jock

Antrim / Re: Allen Bell, b.1840/41 Crumlin, Co Antrim
« on: Monday 08 March 21 20:30 GMT (UK)  »

Yes, 'tis time to bring back the TT experience a.s.a.p. to Norn Iron.
[My old grandad used to act as marshall for it in the 1950-1960s, as well as for the go-karting!]

Only teasing - you meant the more "Earthy" stuff.
[Where there's muck there's brass (or hopefully gold)!]

This URL shows the geographical connection between
  Dalway's Bawn & Castle Dobbs (near Ballycarry village / Carrickfergus town)
  Castlehill (near Ballynure village).

[Such was one of the many offerings produced from throwing ' "dalway's bawn" +map' in to a BING search.]

Pretty sure that the TT series has run its run.
[Though "The Big Dig" seems to be a follow on ...]

There were a few episodes from NI, most notably at (???) Dundrum Castle, O'Neill's Castle and Dunseverick (Iron Age roundhouses).

The Dundrum evacuation unexpectedly uncovered a "cashell" (an early Irish Christian church).
[Unfortunately, no "stash of cash" - the Leprechauns had moved the end of the rainbow elsewhere the day before.]

This was the place that John de COURCY established his first foothold in Ulster.
He was married to Affreca, daughter of the King of Man and the Isles.
[Expect (c.f. today's revelations from Harry & Meghan) that there was much speculation at that time about what colour of skin their offspring might proudly exhibit ...]

My legs have been slowly descending back in to Africa (the land of our ultimate origins) for years now.
[Probably due to too much imbibing of the Devil's Buttermilk!]

As a homage to Geneva, a city open and welcoming to the oppressed, Les Freres Papinot have released a new product (a strong dark beer) to celebrate BLM.
Long-life to Liberty!
[Goodness knows how he got that face tan.
 The only time I visited the city I couldn't even see the fountains, let alone the mountains!
 So, after John KNOX's old church slammed their doors, I amused myself with exploring the souterains ...]

Such followed the death by drowning in the lake of a slave who was trying to escape from humiliating display in the City's market in 1556.
From the cathedral pulpit, CALVIN launched a vibrant call to make Geneva the world emblem of tolerance and respect for human dignity.

"Post Tenebras, Lux!"    (Trans: "After the Darkness, Light!")
[Slogan of The Rennaissance & The Reformation(s).]

"Post Tenebras, Dignitas".     (Trans: "After the Darkness, Dignity!")
[Slogan of CALVIN (?), Les Freres Papinot  (and BLM sympathizers now?).]

[Wish I'd been at the Product Marketing brainstorming meeting ...]

I talked to someone once who'd worked alongside the big TT fellow.

He was reported as having two overriding characteristics in the field:
  a) Profligacy with Saxon swear words;
  b) Spectacular rift valley clearing technique, using aerosol particles.

Other diggers vied to ensure that he kept his head in the sand and that they were situate upwind from him when he talked thru' his other major orifice!

Capt. Jock

P.S. There is as fine photo of Dalway's Bawn on P.15 in Ernie SCOTT's erudite A5-sized book on the local history:

 "Ballynure, History and Happenings in the village over the past Four Hundred Years"
 Ernest McAlister SCOTT
 Shanway Press  2004 (Reprinted 2008). pp. 119

The caption there also refers to the Bellaghy Bawn, now a museum and tribute center to the poet Seamus HEANEY.
[Bellaghy is a townland lying roughly mid-way between Ballymena & Ballymoney, just West of the main road, within the parish of Rasharkin. Interesting to learn that the head of one of the London merchant companies (JONES) was based in Co. Antrim (such county, supposedly, NOT being part of the Plantation).]


"The foundations of a castle built by John DALWAY, a cornet under Walter Devereux in Essex's army, are to be seen in Castletown, about 1 mile north east of Ballynure.
The castle was erected about 1609."

Ref: p.33
The Ordnance Survey Memoirs of Ireland. Vol.32
1832~3, 1835~40
Ballynure and District

The Institute of Irish Studies
The Queen's University of Belfast

Pub. 1995
ISBN 0-85389-552-X PPI

Sounds just like a place that the Belfast Naturalist Field Club (?) might have visited on their sojourns. Joseph BIGGAR and William Fee McKINNEY were enthusiastic members. Check out Linenhall Library, Ulster Museum, newspapers ...?

Was it a (modest) castle or a fortified cattle enclosure (aka "bawn") ?

Did DALWAY not get around to finishing off the walls with whitewash as well as DOBBS?

Antrim / Re: Allen Bell, b.1840/41 Crumlin, Co Antrim
« on: Sunday 28 February 21 21:07 GMT (UK)  »

The spirit of Life drives all as usual ...

Despite the king’s grant, Dalway still had to be cautious about external claims to his lands at this time.

In the early 1600s Englishman Baptist Jones held large swathes of land in Marshallstown as a tenant of Sir Arthur Chichester, but also lay claim to several hundred acres of Dalway’s land “across the mearing” in Kilroot Parish, which may have extended to the bawn.

This claim leaves its mark in modern day as the tiny townland of Crossmary.

This threat to Dalway’s land seems to have come to nothing.

Jones took over lease of lands belonging to the Worshipful Company of Vintners in Bellaghy in 1617 and is likely to have relocated there at this time.
He established his own bawn there (Bellaghy Bawn) in about 1619.
He later became head of the company and was knighted in 1621.
The last of the Dalways to live at the bawn – Marriot Robert Dalway and his family – emigrated to Australia in 1886, settling in Lorne, Victoria.


Phew, 'tis a fair oul' story that you're unravelling there !

Capt. Jock
[Trawler of the murky depths & descendant of a long line of publicans.]

Antrim / Re: Allen Bell, b.1840/41 Crumlin, Co Antrim
« on: Saturday 27 February 21 19:56 GMT (UK)  »
Hi DonnaMarie,

The CLEMENTS and DALWAY names are very well known in Co. Antrim.

The former hailed from CLEMENTS' Hill in Ballynure parish (just East of Ballyclare town).
[Their famous "son" is Mark Twain (aka Samuel CLEMENS), the famous American author.]

John DALWAY was a soldier.
He came across to Carrickfergus as part of the army under the Earl of Essex (DEVEREUX) in 1573.
[DEVEREUX was Queen Elizabeth 1st's new fancy piece, after the Earl of Leicester died.
 Her aim was to bring the Ulster Lords (O'NEILL, O'DONNELL, MacGUIRE) to heel.
 He (famously) let her down, making a deal in the middle of a stream, then abandoning his post.]

DALWAY built DALWAY's Bawn near Carrickfergus.
Such was a fortified house/farm.

Built according to King JAMES (STEWART) 1st's specification for the 1612 Ulster Plantation.
[Notwithstanding that Co. Antrim was NOT officially part of this venture.
 A deal having been made already with the Early of Antrim in 1605.]

Participants were awarded 1,000 acres of land, and the (newly created) title of Baronet.
[This gave King James leverage to threaten the obstreperous Barons with demotion/replacement.
 Such "sat" on the the next higher rung of the aristocracy.
 They were not happy about the regal succession, despite the unassailable DNA evidence .]

In return they had to promise to populate the lands with a prescribed density of "loyal" settlers.
Then also, importantly, to pay him £1,000!
[To replenish the regal coffers which Elizabeth had decimated during her "Irish Wars".]

Many soldiers were offered grants of lands as rewards for their efforts.
[To be interpreted as "in lieu of back pay".
 Such was very common in many many military expeditions.]

Many lands within Co. Donegal were allocated to King James STEWART's relatives.
[If you were a soldier you were designated a "Servitor" and could get a minimum 2,000A.
 If not, you were designated an "Undertaker" and could get (multiples of) 1,000A, pro rata.]

There were many native DOYLEs (Oops, correction: DALYs) there.
[Modern English Language spelling.]
Apparently there, and elsewhere, the DALWAY spelling is considered to be a "better" representation for the pronounciation of the original DÁLACH Gaelic surname.
Ref: The Book of Ulster Surnames, Robert BELL. ISBN 0-85640-405-5. P.49

Many folks went out West at the start of the Plantation, but then migrated Eastward.
[Due to the many engagements/setbacks involved in the 1641 Rebellion & then the Jacobite wars.
 Such involved many scarperings across the sea to Scotland, then back again.
 e.g. the ancestors of W.F. McKINNEY, the famous genealogist of Carnmoney.]

The Valley of the Lagan (S/W from Belfast) and the shores of Lough Neagh were areas of heavy English Settlement.
[The latter was renowned for its plethora of orchards.  Known as "Little England".]

Capt. Jock

P.S Straid lies a few miles SE of Ballynure village, on the road from Ballyclare to Carrickfergus.

Antrim / Re: John Jamieson & LOL 977
« on: Sunday 17 January 21 01:09 GMT (UK)  »
Hi again folks (part 2),

Anyhows, I had a look through "The Hidden Graveyard" as published by the NIFHS.

This documents their copious investigative works within the graveyard located immediately South of the church.

There are 3 entries of potential interest to you listed on the index of inscribed names therein:

  Alexander J. JAMISON, d. 28-NOV-1883, aged 73
  Wife Eliza (Betty) (JAMISON), d. 09-NOV-1895, aged 76

  John & Jane HEWITT remembering dau Margaret Jamison d. 15-JAN-1885, aged 20.

  William JAMISON, d. 27-MAR-1931
  Wife Catherine (JAMISON), d. 28-JAN-1936
  Dau Margretta (JAMISON), d. 14-APR-1943

The designations for the grave locations above correspond to the NIFHS methodical gridding of the area, with e.g.
Section "D"
  being factored down in to
Sub columns "A,B,C, D, ..." [for East/West orientation (aka "the X-axis)],
  then further down in to
Numeric counts [for North/South orientation (aka "the Y-axis")].


Sadly I can't find our copy of "Carved in Stone" which is the NIFHS's production for the "old (aka no.3) graveyard, the one that immediately surrounds the church.
[They produced a CD of this a while back (cost was only £5).
 Unfortunately it is out of stock, and not immediately orderable due to COVID restrictions.]

I couldn't see any "J H 1" grave reference on that map that I posted.
[Many years ago, I knocked on the door of the Sexton's office.
 Only to be confronted by the Vicar, who was "filling in" for him.
 V: "Your not that fellow whose been writing disparaging letters to me
   about the terrible state of the graveyard (many, many memorials knocked over/smashed, etc.).
   No one ever contributes towards their maintenance."
 CJ: "No, no, no - it must have been my identical twin brother!  (A true statement!)

After that we always included some spandoobrees with any requests.
Eventually, Newtownabbey Council took over the maintenance of all the graveyards.
The last time I was there was just after they'd blitzed most of them with Agent Orange, wiping out all vegetation, and thus exposing the paucity of memorials.]

 I managed to persuade the Vicar to lend me the original of the map for a few hours.
 Then had to navigate my way (fast!) down in to Belfast to find a copy bureau.
 That had a certain frissant to it.
 I was wearing my nazzy new Christmas jumper, sporting an ancient Celtic motif ...!

 [Still, nothing compared to visiting the Society of Genealogists in the East End of London.
  Hop, on train early on Saturday morning, arrive @Marylebone ~08:30.
  Skip past all the detritus on the street from the night before.
  Some of it was still half-alive and aggressively begging for attention.
  I had to perform my best impression of Fagan / Forrest Gump to successfully navigate the obstructions.
  Those were the days of REAL genealogical research ... exhilarating / exhausting / rewarding stuff.]

Never understood those labels against the plots.
There is some correlation between their first letter and the family name on the plots, but it doesn't apply comprehensively.  Think that it had something to do with the "mort cloths" that were produced, but these are not well kept ....]


I'll try to unleash the third arm of TheWhuttle cod-head Trinity for you.
We have a route in to the NIFHS, direct to the lady who organised their "attack" upon the old Carnmoney graveyards, so will see what we can stir up w.r.t. your research.

Suspect however, given the 1960s-70s burial timeframes, that unless the families had much earlier associations with the area, that any plots for John & Florence will be present within the "newer" graveyards.

Be aware that not all graves had headstones, and that many have been compromised, or were inaccessible from a safety perspective.

[Ours only had a low iron railing, with a "W" plague on it!
 The other end was "owned" by a large tree, such having engulfed the framework.
 Whether there were any names there will never be known.
 Luckily one "older" member of the family could recall where the site was located.
 We convinced ourselves that this was right.
 Such based on the (inscribed) dates from nearby headstones - not all terribly upright.
 This involved application of our speleological (caving) skills.]


Will get back to you soon, hopefully with good news,

Capt. Jock

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