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Messages - osmposm

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Midlothian / Re: Butti family 1796
« on: Friday 23 December 16 00:13 GMT (UK)  »
Much of this thread is now very old; but if anyone is still following it, you may be interested to know that portraits of LOUIS JOSEPH BUTTI ("Edinburgh Antiques dealer") and his wife Mary Teresa are coming up at auction in Edinburgh at Lyon & Turnbull on 25th January:

Suffolk / Re: Orgill LEMAN of Brampton Hall
« on: Thursday 22 May 14 03:57 BST (UK)  »
Diplodicus, 'Leman' (or Leaman in the 1841, where the difference between the enumerator's 'L' & 'S' is clearer) is certainly the correct reading - he's clearly the Elijah [sic] Leman, son of Thomas Leman & Phebe Hunter, baptised with his brother William at Fressingfield on 25 Sep 1808. You'll already have found all this, I'm sure, but Thomas married Phoebe Hunton at Metfield on 13 Aug 1805 - his age in the '51 Census suggests a birth year of c1769, that in the '41 as c1771-76, but ages of the elderly were of course very shaky in those days (and the '51 didn't know his birthplace, so I'd take the age of 81 with a pinch of salt). It's interesting that in 1841 father Thomas is spelt 'Lemon', while son Elisha is 'Leaman' - presumably they pronounced it differently, and the enumerator wrote what he heard.

The '41 says he was born in the county, so despite the distance (30+ miles) I would have said he could be the Thomas Leman, son of John & Mary, baptised at Semer on 4 June 1775. However that Thomas married someone else (Sarah Hill) in 1795, and although the last of their children was baptised before Thomas & Phoebe married, another source suggests his wife Sarah did not die until 1810, which must rule him out. And besides, although Thomas of Semer's forbears are traceable back several generations, they came from Lavenham...which is really in the wrong direction if we're trying to find a link with the Beccles family!

So to get (finally) to your question, there seem to be plenty of Lemans/Lemons in many parts of Suffolk. Sir John's family were in the Beccles area in the early C16th, and probably long before. Beccles is only 12 or 15 miles from Metfield/Fressingfield; and although I fear you'll never prove it, I would frankly be be surprised if your Lemans were NOT distant cousins of the posh lot! But you may never know whether they branched off before the other family clawed their way up in the world, or are descended from a junior branch that gradually slipped back down. Downward social mobility must be quite as common as the upward variety, but of course it is seldom recorded - one occasionally gets reminded of this mathematical necessity when an Australian bus driver unexpectedly inherits an earldom from a distant relation...and a former Garter King of Arms, Sir Anthony Wagner, convincingly calculated that in the early 1960s there had to be around 2 million living descendants of Edward III!!

Suffolk / Re: Orgill LEMAN of Brampton Hall
« on: Saturday 17 May 14 01:01 BST (UK)  »
A slightly annoying postscript to the story of my 1834 portraits of the Rev Naunton T O Leman & his wife Henrietta, and the new owner of their house, Brampton Hall.

I eventually managed to get hold of Dr Stevens through the estate agents - Rootschat rules had not allowed him to leave his email address on here, nor to contact me by PM; and by the time I tried to PM him he was presumably no longer paying attention! Unfortunately he turned out to be a man who likes to move things on quickly...within a month or two - and before I reached him - he'd already had his copies painted from the images I'd posted on here.

As a result, although interested to see them, he has no interest in acquiring the originals - which is rather a nuisance as I'd love to have sold them to him!

Let that be a lesson to everyone - do NOT post high-resolution images online if you want them to remain within your fact they are now also to be seen as stock images on various Chinese websites offering hand-painted reproductions of paintings!

Further info about the site, and some concerns still, at least in the short-term. I, too, wrote to David Hale in South Australia, who replied thus:

Thank you for your very kind message, and for the donation to the MAPCO website. It is greatly appreciated! MAPCO is an entirely self-funded project, and I need to cover costs through any donations provided. Every little bit helps. Sincere thanks!

I have managed to secure the continuation of the site for the moment. I have been in constant contact with the U.S. host provider who were emailing every 2 days saying that the site would be closed again. For the moment things appear to be OK, but there will be changes behind the scenes in the next 3-4 months to secure the long-term future of the site.

I do urge anyone who regularly uses Mr Hale's wonderful collection of maps to contribute voluntarily to the site's upkeep.

Yes, like others here I am surprised and absolutely delighted to find that the Mapco site is up and running again. It really is the most superlative resource, and I have used it in innumerable research projects. I am deeply grateful to the owner for creating it in the first place, for adding to it so energetically over the years, and now for bringing it back to us after a deeply depressing absence.

Its free access has been a joy, of course, but perhaps we are not being realistic. I, for one, would be happy to subscribe to it, assuming the cost is low. Perhaps the model of the IHR/Univ of London's excellent British History Online website is one to consider: some maps could be free, but a premium subscription - say £30 p.a. - could give access to the full range.

Meanwhile I am off there now to make a donation: it is richly deserved.

Suffolk / Re: Orgill LEMAN of Brampton Hall
« on: Saturday 01 September 12 19:59 BST (UK)  »
I'm so sorry, Dr Stevens, I've only just seen your very interesting post. As you probably realise, the email address you provided has had to be removed, so I am about to send you a PM with mine. We have things to discuss.

I am extremely happy that Brampton Hall has a new owner with such an interest in its history - not the fate, alas, of many fine old houses, and Brampton is a fine one indeed. Congratulations on the purchase: the house is lucky to have found you.

Hello Valerie

I happened upon your request of three or four years ago for information about the Convent of the Sacred Heart in Wandsworth.

Did you find out all you needed in the end? My house overlooks its former site, and my interest in local history has led me to discover a bit about it.

The main building was built on the site of - or was an adaptation of - an old house called "The Orchard", that lay north of West Hill and east of what is now Santos Road. They seem to have bought the house and its large (for London) park in the mid-1870s - it first appears on maps as a convent in 1878. By the mid-1890s it had been much extended, and was described then (and later) as a "Training College"; it also had a school attached. The main block and school were further extended, and a large chapel was built, during the 20th Century, and the sisters also acquired a pair of houses in Santos Road (34-36), that were knocked together and used as a hostel for those at the college - there is still a doorway in the wall at the end of the garden that led into the convent's grounds.
In the mid-1970s the estate was voluntarily sold to Wandsworth Borough Council for housing development, and the current housing estate was built by WBC in phases over a number of years from 1977 (the site was being prepared when I bought my house that September). I think the main old building was taken down at that time, though the school survived for a while. It was later replaced by a new primary school (which is still there) on ground at the northern end of the former estate, on Oakhill Road.

The houses in Santos Road were retained by the Sacred Heart as a much smaller convent and hostel, along with two or three other local properties. The pair were finally sold to a property developer in 2005-6 and converted into flats, and the other properties also sold. At the time of this final sale the owner was a charitable organisation, the Trustees for the Society of the Sacred Heart of 3 Bute Gardens, Hammersmith, London W6 7DR. The Society has a long and continuing history - their website gives some history and an email address for their archivist: . There is also mention of the Wandsworth Training College, which was apparently for teachers:

Santos Road was actually - and to some extent still is - the centre of a significant local Catholic community: as well as the Convent itself, and its College, schools and hostel, the large Catholic church of St Thomas of Canterbury was built nearby on the corner of Santos Road and West Hill in 1895. As a result the street had for much of the C20th a big population of Catholics, though this has been been dropping as its long-term pre-WWII residents have died out.

Sorry if this is more than you wanted to know (or you've already found it all out!); but I am posting it on Rootschat anyway, as it may get picked up in Google searches by future researchers.


P.S. Funnily enough I recently found an old postcard of the Convent - I'll see if I can figure out how to post an image of it. Edit: I can't at the moment, sorry!

Suffolk / Re: Orgill LEMAN of Brampton Hall
« on: Friday 18 November 11 04:21 GMT (UK)  »
The portraits are by George Sayer (1809-1887), a C19th artist of whom very little is known (and most of that wrong!).....Like many other very competent Victorian portraitists, however, he faded into obscurity as the new technology of photography took off. Although he still described himself as a portrait painter in 1871, he had stopped exhibiting by 1850, and all his known works seem to date from the 1830s-early 50s.

The above was until 10 minutes ago mainly conjecture, but it seems I was right - just discovered he was imprisoned for debt in 1860, poor man.

Suffolk / Re: Orgill LEMAN of Brampton Hall
« on: Friday 18 November 11 02:53 GMT (UK)  »
Not sure Burke's Peerage is correct about Susan Leman's father, I have her as the daughter of William Leman and his wife Sarah Leman (whose father I think was a Thomas) baptised at Brampton in 1734. ...† I know I found the published sources confusing at the time but I'm pretty sure that's correct and Burkes isn't. ...

Sorry, Nicola, it was me that was wrong, not Burke's - I miscopied what it said in BLG. The actual quote is, "Lineage- THE REV. NAUNTON THOMAS ORGILL, of Brampton Hall, b. 11 Dec 1759 (son of William Orgill, of Beccles, and SUSAN LEMAN his wife, 3rd dau. and co-heir of William Leman, by Sarah his wife, dau. of Thomas Leman, of Brampton Hall, grandson of Thomas Leman, of Brampton, nephew of SIR JOHN LEMAN (see BURKE'S Extinct Baronetage)....". The Leman Baronetcy was not, of course, held by Sir John himself - it was granted in 1665 to his nephew William....or great nephew William according to some sources, though I think thatís wrong.

Here are two versions, Burkeís Extinct & Dormant Baronetcies 1838:

And Cockayneís Complete Baronetage 1904: (see pp7-9)

Cockayne is normally as reliable as it gets Ė he was very thorough Ė but heís only interested in the main line of descent for the title. Burke gives more collateral detail, some of which is useful and probably right - including another nephew of Sir John called Thomas - but I think heís wrong about who the 1st Baronet was. This may well have been corrected in later editions Ė Cockayne had an extra 60 years to get to the bottom of it.

Iíll certainly have a look for your St Giles in the Fields entries when I finally make it to the LMA, though Iím not at all sure when thatíll be.

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