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Messages - Akira01000

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1
Australia / Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« on: Friday 11 July 14 07:02 BST (UK)  »
https://www.flickr.com/photos/state-records-nsw/14620869401/in/photostream/

Hoping this is a link to Nov 1844 plan showing how near the Benevolent Asylum was to Christ Church St Lawrence  ;D   

Perhaps that gives a good reason for the Anglican baptism  :) 

(NSW SRO flickr updates each Friday, and today they released that 'photo' )

Cheers,  JM

Hi JM,

Wasn't the benevolent asylum sponsored and managed via the anglican church?

I read that somewhere before can't find the reference, site has since moved.

Cheers
Akira

2
Australia / Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« on: Friday 11 July 14 06:18 BST (UK)  »
Remember also that you had to have a degree of 'usefulness' to immigrate.  I think many of us have ancestors who were farmers/farm labourers when they immigrated but in reality wouldn't have known a cow if they fell over it!!

Debra  :)

Hi Debra :),

That's quite funny :)

So with him being a minister/ rev and father listed as a "farmer" possible correlation his father being a minister also?

I'm still amazed at the fact he was a rev / minister that's just amazing!

Cheers
Akira


3
Australia / Re: BROWN
« on: Friday 11 July 14 06:12 BST (UK)  »
Hi there,

I can confirm that the family search images arrived, and I have spoken at length with one of my elderly rellies re the practicalities of record keeping (a retired clergyman).      The two family search images support the Early Church Records transcriptions, but are images of the parish registers.  Rev McGarvie seems to have married the couple 4 November 1843, and then when writing up the SECOND register in preparation for transmitting the record, he has written 4 December 1843.   I explain, the clergyman has likely had TWO registers on hand for the ceremony, one for the bride, groom and their witnesses to sign, and the other for his 'safe keeping' back up copy.   The bride, the groom and two of their three witnesses have SIGNED and the third witness made his mark.      All would have signed the certificate the clergyman hands to the bride (she was usually handed this as the womenfolk were the ones usually who were asked to prove their status).   

Then sometime near the end of the quarter, the clergymen of all the denominations would need to write up their transmittal register and send it off for the NSW Supreme Court or at least the NSW Chaplains (depending on the era, and by 1840s it was NSW Supreme Court) to record the info in their registers.     

The images that family search sent through to our OP do NOT have the autographs.  They are all in the same hand, which I recognise as Rev McGarvie.   

So it is likely just the one marriage, a Presbyterian service, and it was just days after the baby's Anglican baptism.   

Now, I am aware (and I may have mentioned it at RChat previously), that there's parish records for Christ Church St Lawrence, that may NOT be showing up at NSW BDM's online index.   The ones I am aware of are from both the era when there was just the temporary building, and also just prior to commencement of civil registration.     I will need to find time to go back over some family history research I did on my own tree and Christ Church St Lawrence back in the 1970s to get the exact details, BUT there's "issues" to sort out still. 

 BUT I am NOW quite sure that there was just the one couple, William BROWN and Matilda WATSON in Sydney in that era.

Re The Benevolent Society and Matilda as a pauper .... Sometimes the records are detailed and sometimes scant.   But it was a form of a laying in hospital, so it is likely that's where the baby was born in the May.     A pauper is simply a person without visible means of support at that time, and Debra's suggestion re estrangement from her family makes good sense.    I think the Mitchell Library in Sydney may have the best  depth of records on the Benevolent Society.   

As I could be away for perhaps almost a week, (going to Bundy Qld) may I please be excused until I have had time to get back and then search through my offline resources  ;D   

Many cheers,  JM

Hi JM,

Thanks for all of your help, enjoy the break still, absorbing the information just posted.

Enjoy your break
Cheers
Akira

4
Australia / Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« on: Friday 11 July 14 05:32 BST (UK)  »
Hi Debra,

Wow, that is amazing work never knew that the latter suggested of estrangement or shame to the family on two counts (possible)

1) william being a possible ex convict and the associated shame of this at the time?

2) matilda being with child prior to being married?

The records provided and sourced from the susan (the chicken scratch) indicate John Watson was a Farmer and not a Minister, wouldnt this have been indicated?

On the records for the Susan?

What you have provided is the justification is it then possible, to assume that with the supporting evidence, there is also two Rev John Watson's in Australia?

In 1897 there was an article which a Rev John Watson (Possibly John Watson Jnr) was guilty of heresy in WA?

Cheers
Akira

P.S. Again amazing work!!


5
Australia / Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« on: Thursday 03 July 14 14:13 BST (UK)  »
Hi All,

Just found the following record as there is a william atwood brown not matching to the age but he married and had a child in 1837 same name with parents william and emma.

However this record https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JWWH-7ZG parents born 1809 christ 1810 william brown and Elizabeth matches the age in london but not an Emma is Emma a nickname for Elizabeth?

Cheers
Akira

6
Australia / Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« on: Thursday 03 July 14 12:56 BST (UK)  »
Well found Debra  ;D

Hi Akira, 

Methodists, Presbyterians, Congregationalists,  formally united in the 1970s, however, even back in the 19th century they co-operated with each other, at least in rural NSW.  And also at higher levels in the long running debate re NSW BDM records for marriages ..... 1856-1895 (what to include in the civil registration, v the sacredness of the Church registers) So I do not find it at all odd or surprising you were given that they were of the Methodist denomination.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniting_Church_in_Australia   

Cheers,  JM

Hi JM,

That was going to be my next question about the congregational burial as I had only started looking into it  ;D

7
Australia / Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« on: Thursday 03 July 14 12:54 BST (UK)  »
Hi All,

Just found William Brown's conviction from the old bailey (Thanks Neil) http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18260622-181-punish912&div=t18260622-181#

Record 1# 17 at the time of conviction estimated age born c1811 (in 1828) "old bailey"

Record 2# 21 on the (convict incidents) which would put his estimated birth at c1805 (In 1828)

Record 3# 80 at the time of his death which would put his estimated birth at c1810 (in 1890)

Now record 1# and 3# both match give or take a year but record 2# doesn't appear to match why would this be the case?

Cheers
Akira

8
Australia / Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« on: Thursday 03 July 14 09:28 BST (UK)  »
I had noted that they married in Scot's Presbyterian Church Sydney. It is odd for someone from Derby. But not so, for someone from Scotland by the name of William BRUCE ::)

Neil :-\

Hi Neil

They were married in St Andrew's Scots church I too thought this was strange, as william George Brown was bapt in St Lawrence a CoE church both in Sydney.

However there were a number of convict marriages performed here from what I've been told.

Cheers
Akira

The WATSON family were Church of Scotland

John, Margaret and children under 18 years
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11585-133614-56?cc=1542665

Elizabeth
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11585-130293-85?cc=1542665

Robert
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11585-111592-85?cc=1542665

Rebecca
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11585-136081-69?cc=1542665

Jane
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11585-131365-62?cc=1542665

Mary Jane
I cannot see an index card for her on FamilySearch but the manifest shows her as 23 (11 January birthdate I think it says)

Debra  :)

Hi Debra :)

This is some new information thanks for posting, I never knew they had index cards available on there!

I'm surprised about the religion as I have always been supplied with they were methodists by other researchers.

Where does this information come from and was it transcribed from the original information from the transportation/immigration register?

Cheers
Akira

9
Australia / Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« on: Thursday 03 July 14 09:16 BST (UK)  »
City of Sydney Assessment Book

1867        77 9 9         59 Dixon Street
William BROWN   (person rated)
Robert WATSON  (owner//landlord)      House £17

Hi Wivenhoe,

I believe this could (potentially) be the Robert Watson http://www.sydneyaldermen.com.au/alderman/robert-watson/ as he is listed as being born in "Fintona, Co. Tyrone, Ireland"

Also links with the death registration found ;)

Cheers
Akira

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