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Hello everyone,

Hoping for some insight into a wee mystery I have with this person and one of her parents.

Rose Bina Hawkins was born 6th Jan 1888 and was baptised on 25th Jan 1888, St. Saviours, Battersea.  Her parents were listed as William Hawkins (Labourer) and Mary Jane.  She married in 1951 although she was together with her future husband as early as 1916 as that was when they had their first child.  I also have her in 1911 as a servant to a grocer in South Hayling, Hampshire - the use of the unusual middle name of Bina shows that it is the right person as well as her giving her birth place on the census record as Battersea, London.  What I can't find is any record of her, or her parents, in 1891 or 1901 nor of her father prior to his wedding.

The only appropriate marriage between a William Hawkins and a Mary Jane in the time scale and area needed is one on 4th Jan 1880, at the parish church in St. George the Martyr, Southwark.  Both parties are listed as living in High Street, Borough.  From this I can trace Mary Jane's (her birth would have been 1857, Deptford) family quite easily in earlier census records with the knowledge of her father's name, William Henry Godfrey.  However, William's father is listed as Job Hawkins (Labourer), Deceased and no age is given on the marriage record for the groom to help tie him down. 

I cannot find William living with a father named Job anywhere in the area prior to this marriage so am a bit stumped.  I did wonder if they came from Hampshire - therefore explaining why Rose Bina turned up there in 1911 if they had returned to his stomping ground after their marriage - but I can't find them there either.  In theory, it's possible that he died or they went their separate ways after the marriage but he must have been around some time in 1887 to have gotten his wife pregnant with Rose Bina!

There is a 1881 census record for a William 23, (1858, Vauxhall, Surrey, Plasterer) and Mary Hawkins 25 (1956 with only a 'ditto' under the Surrey part of the address and the district left blank) 108 Ingrave St, Battersea which could be them....and could not be them as well.  Family history tells us that Rose Bina was an only child so we don't have the option of using siblings to find the family between their marriage and Rose Bina appearing in 1911 in Hampshire.

There is a William Hawkins listed in 1871 at Camberwell noted as stepson to a Thomas G Pocock and wife Rebecca A so thinking that we know his father, Job, was dead, I investigated her marriages but found her previous husband to be a Thomas Barret Hawkins s/o Marshall Hawkins - no sniff of the name Job Hawkins.

There is another William Hawkins listed in 1871 at Hackney with his age given as 14 (1857) with a birth place only as London, Middlesex and he is listed with his widowed mother, Maria Hawkins (1830, Exeter, Devon).  Tracing this family back gives us a 1861 census with Maria living with husband William 36 (1825, Hoxton) and assorted children, one of which is a William Edward 6, (1855, born Haggerston).  Haggerston is part of Hoxton so no connection to Vauxhall at all and the census was taken Stoke Newington so the area and the father's name doesn't match.

I'm doing wonderfully well at finding out who William Hawkins isn't, but not so well finding out who he was.

I can't find much info on anyone called Job Hawkins either, with no birth or death date or idea of where they lived, my brick wall seems very firm at the moment.

Can anyone help....?

Regards
ScallyW.

I'm not sure this is the right forum to pose this question so, even though I'm not a beginner, I hope it's OK to put it here and I won't mind it being moved elsewhere if one of the mods think it necessary.

I have a bit of a puzzle in a tree I'm researching for someone else.  We have a man born in 1887 (name is unimportant) who married in 1906 to someone of the same age.  The current day member of the family has always known that this person (his grandfather) was married to someone else prior to his own grandmother and that they had a son.  There was always 'talk' of how his grandfather had to wait quite a few years to marry his 2nd wife, possibly because the first one was still alive.

However we've recently found a record of this man in 1911 where he lists himself as a widow with his small son.  We had found no record of his wife having died though so were a bit non plussed by this as it didn't tie in with him not being free to marry again.  I have now found a second marriage record for the first (theoretically dead) wife in 1916 wherein she describes herself as single and uses her maiden name to marry again.

So the options we have now are that they divorced but that the man didn't want to admit that in the 1911 census and preferred to claim widow-hood.  My understanding of the law at that point is that a divorce would have only been possible if the man petitioned for it claiming adultery by his wife.  I'm aware that divorce was quite rare in this era though and these weren't wealthy people so I don't know how probable this option is.

Altrnatively the marriage could have been annulled if one or both had been under 21 at time of marriage and had not got parental permission to marry.  They married at 19 so that could be possible but we have no way of knowing if that's what happened and while I know that this law came into being after 1754, I have no idea of if, or when, it was revoked.

Alternatively, I know that it was easily possible to marry someone without actually being asked to provide proof of identity or veracity of name and age in earlier years as I've seen it happen in my own family records and other trees I've researched (gypsy groups) where it was fairly normal to use almost any surname you fancied.  So maybe this woman just went to a different church in a different area and said that she was single and no one thought to ask her to prove it.

So, my question is this....

Does anyone know in what era or year it became obligatory to present some kind of ID and their validity to be free to marry?

It seems to be the general consensus in this field that the person listed in this census with her children is one Sophia Coleman (wife of Daniel).  I stated on another thread here on Rootschat that I believed I have the family lines of some of the children listed there.  It was a theory of mine based on the names of the children on that census and I took it for granted that their mother was Sophia Coleman.  Now I believe differently.  I still believe that I have the right family but I'm certain that she isn't the wife of Daniel Coleman and I wanted to share the information I have in case other people have come up against the brick wall I kept hitting with this parentage.

In the line I'm following, I started off with the following siblings....   Matilda Bramwell (1878), Eliza Bramwell (1880), Emma/Emily Bramwell (circa 1882) - these are the names a living relative remembered - he also remembered that there were marriages to Boswell and Coleman involved somehow without remembering who exactly.  Seeing as these names fitted those of some of the children listed in the 1891 census, I came up with the theory that the direct person in 'my' line was a child of Daniel Coleman and Sophia but only because I believed the assumption of who the mother was in this census that I've seen on various boards.

I've found the following records for the Bramwell name, or variations thereof....

Births BMD Records
Thomas Bromwell  Q1 1872, Kidderminster.
Henry (circa 1876) - Several options available, all with different spellings so impossible to decide.
Matilda Broomall  1878, Martley, Worcs.
Harriet Brumill  Q1 1883, Kidderminster.
Eliza Brumill  May 1880, Shelsley, Worcs.
Emma Brumill  Q4 1885, Martley, Worcs.
Richard Bramwell  Q2 1890, Droitwich.

Marriages
Samuel Brummill & Sophia Hodgkis  Q4 1875, Worcester, Worcs.
Eliza Brumwell m Charles Davis 1903, Droitwich.
Emily Brumwell m Ambrose Coleman 1903, Droitwich.
Thomas Brumwell/Hodgkins m Rachel Hodgkins 1903, Droitwich.
Matilda Brumwell m Stradivarius Boswell 1903, Droitwich.
Harriet Bramwell m George Henry Phillips  1902, Kidderminster.
Richard Bramwell m Jessie Cook  1926, Birmingham North.

Baptisms
Eliza Brumill  May 1880 d/o Samuel and Sophia Brummil.  Shelsley, Worcs.  (Since discovering these names, I've spoken to a descendant of Emily/Emma Brumwell and Ambrose Coleman who offered the same names as parents to Eliza, Matilda and Emma and who says that Ambrose's family came from Ireland.

There is a record for a Daniel Coleman born 1845, Ireland, in the right area at the right time who appears to not be gypsy but as the census records found are before the DOB for Ambrose, I haven't been able to confirm it's the right one as he doesn't feature.  Additionally, his wife is listed as Sarah, not Sophia.

So, all that said, I think it's pretty clear that the Sophia Hasken listed at Hartlebury Common, is NOT Sophia Coleman.   

I found these people in the 1881 census record taken in Little Paxton, Huntingdonshire and am trying to work out who they are and who they came from..


Despair Loveridge          Head   24    abt 1857   Witcham, Cambridgeshire  (Tin Brazier & Hawker)
Chrysane Loveridge       Wife  24       abt 1857   Cottenham, Cambridgeshire
Elizabeth    Loveridge       Daughter  1 abt 1880   Chatteris, Cambridgeshire
Stephen    Loveridge       Brother  14  abt 1867   Bedfordshire
Countsellets Loveridge  Brother    3  abt 1878    Raunds, Northamptonshire
Priscilla Loveridge          Sister       7  abt 1874    Raunds, Northamptonshire

There are no other records under the name Despair Loveridge but there is a BMD birth register for a Despair Smith born 1856, Ely, Cambridgeshire.

I'm thinking that either these Smiths used the alternative of Loveridge or his wife was a Loveridge and they used her name for the census.  I would think that the brothers and sisters mentioned are siblings to Despair.  There is a tree on Ancestry giving Despair's parents as Joseph (circa 1830, Bedfordshire) and Elizabeth Loveridge (circa 1833, Bedfordshire) but unfortunately there are no records to confirm any of the details.  This tree does give Stephen Loveridge as a brother to Despair although there is no mention of either Countsellets or Priscilla.


Can anyone throw any light on these people for me?

This is a maternal grandmother of a cousin that I'm trying to trace.

She was born 3 Feb 1908 in West Ham and married a John William Spackman in 1929, also West Ham.

I'm trying to trace her parents names as we have no details on them and this era is that grey area between available census records and prior to the mother's maiden name being listed on the birth registry.

Apparently her father was killed by a horse and cart before she was born so that would be either early 1908 or late 1907.  We understand that she had several siblings and that shortly after Florence's birth, her 2 elder brothers were sent to Barnados and from there they were both sent to Canada.  We know one was called George but have no details of the other apart from knowing that he died very shortly after signing up for the 1914 war.

We believe she had sisters by the name of Gladys, Maud, Lily and that her mother's name was also Maud.

Does anyone know of this family or have the ability to look them up in the 1911 census to find the mother (widowed) and daughters living in the West Ham area?

Regards
ScallyW