RootsChat.Com

While researching the my Jones Ancestry I came across this, Belcher Lee is recorded on the 1881 census living with his wife who he married in 1874 at Maidstone in Kent, her name was Phebe Ransley, they have four children with them George Lee, Stephen Lee, James Lee and Sarah Lee, but wind back to 1852 and the marriage of Phebe Jones to James Ransley at Maidstone in 1852 who are recorded on the 1871 census with four children George Ransley, Stephen Ransley, James Ransley and Sarah Ransley, Phebe's first husband James died in 1869 aged 37 years, Phebe then married Belcher, a surname but perhaps no bloodline depending what you seek in Ancesery.

For the people who have not seen the memorial at Hadlow in Kent or the scene of the tragedy at Hartlake or are unable to visit the places.

Scotland 29th January 1524 some gypsy woman were sentenced to death by drowning a few weeks later this was communicated to banishment form Scotland one of the woman on the roll as Margaret Valentyne a few months later on the 1st of April 1524 a group of Gypsies living in the province of Friesland Holland were banished one of them was a woman named Margietta Valentyn along with Abraham,Anthony,Emanuel and Jurist.....in England the christening of Jane Volantyne on the 1st July 1577 at Horsham Sussex the daughter of George and Margaret being Eygptians and Rouges in 1583 at Gnosall Stafford a baptism of Lancelett Valentine and in 1602 Leticia Voclentine an Eygptian baptised at Blackburn Lancashire.....in Holland 1635 the 18th of December Gipsies Jan and Joris Valentyn banished and a christening of David Valentine 1638 at Fife Scotland.......Finland 1695 and the start of the finish records the christening of Sophia Valentin the surname has variants and is Finish in origin Scotland had much historical contact with the Scandinavian countries and British gypsies frequented them and no doubt the Kale and Romancical travelled to the British Isles alike......the 3rd of November 1771 the marriage of Elizabeth Valentine to John Penfold at Sunbury in Middlesex Elizabeth is purported to be of Gypsy stock but John is not and a Victorian Author hesitated to guess that it was at this point in history that the Penfolds became Gypsy this is no doubt incorrect I had come across a Dorinda Penfold in the mid 1500's just after the start of the Spanish Inquisition 1478 which lasted to 1834 and it was estimated that between 1480 and 1808 31 thousand plus people had been executed how many had been Romany Quinquis/langulleo or even native Gitano is not known many moved north to Holland and came across to Britian and would of eventually engaged with their British cousins I myself have a distant Great Aunt who was such so Dorinda being a Spanish name by origin the penfolds I believe became Gypsies! much earlier than the Valentine marriage [if they had not been Gypsy in the first instance that is]......on the 4th May 1796 Willielraus Volentyne baptised at Cumbernauld the son of Willemi [Raus means a Brawler].....early marriages for penfold to a spouse with a known adopted Gypsy surname but not recorded as such are 1657 Edward to Mary Hunter,Midlothian...1683 Robert to Martha Cootar,Sussex...I was told many years ago that Cootar was the original Gypsy surname which later became Cooper....but then there's always another story......

Ref;M.S.G/S P.99-S.R.S VOL21.P.138.1915-C.W/AAS.EXTRA SERIES 1892-O.E.S.L.PP57/77 1898-LPRS.VOL 41 1911-M.P.R/VPWP VOL 4 P89-JGLS.V.220.1-OWN COLLATED RECORDS.

New Forest alleged Gypsy Village "Morning Leader 3rd June 1907 also Christchurch Times 15th june and the Northern Echo,Darlington 10th july"
Thorny Hill on the outskirts of the New Forest for many years past the population has been principally Gypsies now about 100 marriages between them and the rustics are not uncommon caravans are seldom seen,The Gypsies live in thatched cottages.In the springtime a family or two get "on the move" and return when summer is over.All have adopted English names,Scott and Pateman being the favourite.They are very clannish and quite commonly three generations live together in the same cottage.The elder woman cling to the Romany headdress,earrings are a de rigueur for both sexes.The woman go to Bournmouth on Tuesdays,thursdays and Saturdays to sell flowers [the wild ox-eye daisy was a great favourite with them some ten years ago].The men drive them in pony-carts to Christchurch eight miles distant and then they go by train to Bournemouth the double journey costs sixpence,They keep cows and requisition the forest ponies.
On the 12th of June in the Morning Leader W G Reed a resident near Thorney Hill challenged the for-going account,stating that just three men wear earrings;strawberry-growing,stick-making and farming are the chief industries and that there are only three families of Scotts and three of Pateman but there are ten distinct families of Broomfields who are positively not of Gypsy orgin.

A list of gypsies around Westminster in 1815 only the head of household given stating if wife and number of children but no first names but the occupation is given.

John Lovell/wife/6 children,chair bottomer,tunbridge street
James Lovell/wife/6 children,tinker,church lane
Joseph Lovell/wife/3 children,chair bottomer,new street
Thomas Lovell/wife/2 children,chair bottomer,banbridge street
William Lovell/wife/1 child,knife grinder,church street
Lussha Cooper/wife/10 children,rat chatcher,tottenham court road
Corrie Lovell/wife/5 children,knife grinder,bolton street
Uriah Lovell/wife/6 children,chair bottomer,bolton street
Thomas Llovell/wife/7 children,knife grinder,paddington
Solomon Lovell/wife/4 children,chair bottomer,new street
Solomon Jones/wife/2 children,basket maker-wire worker,battle bridge
John Lee/wife/9 children,chair bottomer,tothil fields
Richard Taylor/wife/3 children,wire worker,new street
Betsey Lovell/widow,supported by son joseph lovell
JosephLlovell/wife/1 child,bellows mender,shore ditch
Diana Lee/widow/1 child,sells earthenware,shore ditch
Mansfield Lee/wife/no children,tinker and grinder,shore ditch
Zachariah Lee/wife/no children,fiddler-travels the country
Thomas Smith/wife/5 children,chair bottomer,lisson green,paddington
Thomas Porter/wife/3 children,works at the canal,paddington
Charlotte Allen/widow/7 children,sells earthernware,kent street,borough
James Cole,wife/4 children,lamplighter and grinder,kent street,borough
Edward Martin/wife/2 children,sells fruit in the street,kent street borough
Samuel Martin/wife/6 children,journeyman saddler,white street
John Sinfield/wife/6 children,sells fish in the streets,white street
John Taylor/wife/3 children,sells fish in the streets,white street