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Topics - antonymark

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Hi everyone,

It's three weeks now since my Ancestry DNA results came in and I'm getting on quite well with sorting my matches into some sort of order. So far my traditional research is being confirmed and no one seems to have been 'playing away'.

The main reason for me testing was to try and prove or disprove that my 2xG Grandmother Mary Ann Thomas was the daughter of James Thomas and Caroline Kitcherside. Most evidence points to this being the case but on her marriage to my 2xG Grandfather William Holden in 1877 Mary Ann's father is given as John, not James. Earlier this year I had lots of help and advice on my Rootschat  thread about this puzzle.

My closest match is to my Dad's brother, uncle 'I' at 1932cm over 59 segments. 'I' is a Great Grandson of William and Mary Ann.

I also match to 'P' at 123cm/4 and his son 'K' at 52cm/2. 'P' and 'K' are Great Grandson and 2xG Grandson of William and Mary Ann.

Also in my Holden group is 'A' at 51cm/3, another 2xG Grandson.

Then it started to get exciting. I match 'L' at 10cm/1 and 'N' at 19cm/1 . Thrulines for both 'L' and 'N' is saying that our shared ancestors are James Kitcherside  and Frances/Fanny Street. James and Frances are showing as Grandparents of Caroline Kitcherside, potential mother of 'my' Mary Ann. Thrulines has 'L' and 'N' as fifth cousins once removed to me and third cousins to each other descended from an Aaron Adsett.

I have no shared matches with either 'L' or 'N'. Not even each other.

A google of 'N' led to a detailed website of the Adsett family history.

I have started to work a tree backwards, forwards and sideways from Aaron Adsett found on the 1841 census. So far my findings are confirming the Thrulines and Adsett website as correct. They are big families and a large proportion of them emigrate to Australia from the 1850s so lots to look at yet.

So is this my Kitcherside connection proved? Two things are bothering me:

1/ Am I going about this the right way?

2/ Should I be concerned that none of my Holden matches, known descendants of William and Mary Ann are shared matches to me with 'L' or 'N'? Or is this accounted for by the reduced chance of fifth cousins and beyond matching?

Thanks for reading to the end. Any advice or suggestions are very welcome.

Best regards, Tony.








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The Common Room / Mary Ann Thomas - 'wrong' father on marriage cert?
« on: Friday 05 March 21 19:27 GMT (UK)  »
Hi everyone,

I've been chasing this round and round for months now and I'm out of ideas as to what to look at next. Any thoughts or suggestions would be most welcome.

My 2xg grandmother was Mary Ann Thomas who married my 2xg grandfather William Holden at Woolwich on 15th January 1877. They are together on all censuses 1881 - 1911. Mary Ann always gives her birthplace as Ewell, Surrey and ages that suggest a birth between 1854 and 1857. I've seen them on electoral rolls up to William's death in 1930 and Mary Ann's in 1932.

Those census details lead to this birth:
 Sep 1855 Epsom 2a 8 THOMAS, Mary Ann (mmn Kitcherside)

Which points to the marriage on 22nd November 1846 at Ewell of James Thomas, labourer to Caroline Kitcherside. James, Caroline, their Mary Ann and other children have been found in 1861 and 1871.

The fly in the ointment here is that on William and Mary Ann's marriage certificate Mary Ann's father is given as John Thomas, labourer. Not James.

I have tried to establish whether these are two different Mary Anns or whether they are one and the same and the use of John on that certificate is somehow an error. I can find no alternative match for "my" Mary Ann before marriage in 1877 and no match for "other" Mary Ann after appearing on the census in 1871 with her father and siblings at East Street, Epsom. Caroline is boarding at Mill Lane, Ewell and working as a monthly nurse.

I've looked long and hard at the Thomas family of Ewell. James' father is given as John Thomas, labourer on that 1846 marriage. James and Caroline had sons John (born and died 1858) and James John (1861 - 1863). Is this where the 'John' has crept into the picture or am I clutching at straws?

I've now followed all the other Thomas children forward in the hope that they would turn up living with, next door to, married to or otherwise linked to an identifiable person from the Holden side. No such luck. I even looked at some of the grandchildren and great grandchildren of James and Caroline.

Lots of the Holden family work in nursing, hospitals or asylums so I thought I was onto something with youngest son Charles Thomas. He was found working as an attendant and asylum hall porter in 1891 and 1901 at the Brookwood Asylum, Woking and in charge of a private nursing home at Bournemouth in 1911. I have Charles' marriage certificate and his father is given as James. Charles died in 1918 without me finding a connection.

The witnesses to William and Mary Ann's marriage were William's cousin Selina Darby and the mysterious "W. Goater" who I have not been able to identify.

I used a recent free weekend to build a little tree on Ancestry for the Thomas family and "my" Mary Ann and the Holdens are flashing away as hints. Meanwhile on my tree on FindMyPast "other" Mary Ann and the Thomas family of Ewell are showing as hints. Can the Ancestry and FindMyPast systems see something I'm missing or, as I think more likely, have other people connected the two Mary Anns based on census age and birthplace without having sight of the marriage certificate?

Would DNA help with this or is Mary Ann too far back for a link to be made? I've not looked into much detail about DNA and it all looks a bit complicated. Would matching to the quite unusual Kitcherside name clinch it and I could claim James and Caroline as 'mine'?

Thanks for reading to the end and I hope the steps I've taken make sense.

Best regards, Tony.




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The Stay Safe Board / Going Down The Pub?
« on: Saturday 04 July 20 00:32 BST (UK)  »
Just a few hours now until Pubs and Restaurants in England can open. Will it be party time or will folks stay away in droves?

I've got to go. I work as a barman for one of the popular chain Pub/Restaurant brands. If the business fails then, at 55 years old, I think I will struggle to find alternative employment.

Our pub is a fifteen minute drive from Leicester......

Furloughed since March I have been very cautious. No non-essential shops. No public transport. Daily walk or cycle ride. One visit to a friend's garden. Couple of distanced chats in the street. That's it.

We had a staff meeting today and a look at how things will work in this very different world we now find ourselves in. It has all been thought out very carefully. A greatly reduced number of tables. Only 'at table' service will be available. Hand sanitizing points everywhere. Total numbers in the building will be controlled by a distanced queuing system in the car park. Contact details will be taken before seating and anyone from the locked down post codes turned away. All the self service elements such as the drinks machine, salad bar and the toaster at breakfast are now being carried out by staff members. Front of house staff can venture no further into the kitchen than the dish washer stacking point. Kitchen staff are separated into zones. We all looked decidedly apprehensive. It's going to be hard to make things fun.

Our manager has only been in post since January and really is putting her all into the job and has already earned my loyalty and respect and I know I can't hide away for ever but I know I won't bounce in tomorrow with my former confidence and eagerness. Perhaps I will feel better with the first day under my belt.

Wish me luck!  Tony.







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The Lighter Side / Doctor will see you now.......
« on: Monday 30 March 20 21:33 BST (UK)  »
I've found my great great grandfather William Holden on the 1881 census working as a Hospital Orderly at The Herbert Military Hospital, Shooters Hill.

The Brigade Surgeon in charge of the hospital was one George Monlas SLAUGHTER  :o

I hope he had a good bedside manner!

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The Common Room / Family Tree Live 2020 - cancelled
« on: Thursday 19 March 20 22:02 GMT (UK)  »
Evening all,

Not surprised but saddened to receive today an e-mail informing me of the cancellation of this event scheduled for the 17th and 18th April at Alexandra Palace.

Take care, Tony.

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The Common Room / Reporting a transcription error to findmypast
« on: Thursday 28 November 19 21:00 GMT (UK)  »
Evening all,

I think we've all had some issues with FindMyPast recently but here is a positive experience.

On 20th November I eventually found my great uncle William D Hunter with his wife Lily and daughter in Romford on the 1939 register. The whole family were indexed under the surname 'Stunter'. I got them by searching for daughter with her married surname. The image is Hunter but I can sort of see how they got Stunter.

I submitted a correction using the 'report error' button and received an automatic reply saying that it  would be looked at within 90 days. Anyway, looking at them again tonight just over a week later and they are all Hunters. Result!

Regards, Tony.

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The Lighter Side / What to call the new baby?
« on: Thursday 26 September 19 22:24 BST (UK)  »
Evening all,

Just come across this on freebmd. He's not one of mine but I'd love to know WHY??!!

Births Mar 1907 Oldham 8d 603 Jackson, Norman Conquest

 ;D Tony ;D

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Census and Resource Discussion / Widow's children 1911
« on: Friday 23 August 19 00:22 BST (UK)  »
Hi All,

I've been looking at my great grandmother on the 1911 Census. She has by this time been widowed and is working as a general servant in a household. Her children are not with her.

What seems odd is that the columns detailing the number of children born and still living have been completed against her name. As I understood it these details were to be completed for the "present marriage" only and shouldn't have been filled in for a widow. The head of the house was a Buyer for a Paper Merchants so I imagine would have been no stranger to form filling.

I have previously found confused householders entering details of their deceased children but in both those instances the entries have been crossed out - I assumed by the enumerator on collection and checking the form.

Has anyone come across something similar?

Best regards, Tony.


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Hi there, I have this GRO certificate.

2nd August 1902 at St. Mary Magdalene, Bermondsey Arthur Albert Upsall, 27, Bachelor of 246 Alderminster Road, Fitter, son of John Upsall (deceased) Carpenter married Lily Hoare, 21, Spinster of 185 Fort Road, daughter of Thomas Hoare, Post Office official. The witnesses were Thomas Hoare and Jessie Sharpe. All sign. After Banns by E.M.Warren(?), Curate.

This couple leave Southampton on 30th January 1904 for Durban (Port Natal) South Africa with their daughter Daisy May. (Q4 1903 Chesterfield 7b 794 Upsall, Daisy May)

I bought this certificate in the hope that it was 'my' Lily Emily Hoare, daughter of Edward Bingham Hoare. This is a different Hoare family so I'd be happy to pass this certificate on to someone with family connections or research interests in the Upsalls or this Hoare family.

I have put the details from the certificate as a postem on freebmd.

Regards, Tony.

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