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Topics - avm228

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With DNA matches showing me as related to descendants of Cicely, I am trying to work out the link.

Here’s her story as I know it.

1902 (12 Mar): “Sicley” Ramsden Charteris born at Grange Terrace, Totley, Dore, to Morris Vane Charteris (compositor) and Annie Charteris formerly Ramsden. Registered by Annie on 18 April, same address.

1924: Cicely Fidler marries Samuel Winson, Derby RD. (Why “Fidler” is unknown - marriage cert awaited).

1939 Register: She is Cicely (or Cecily) Winson b 12 Mar 1902 - with husband and family in Belper.

1985: Cicely Ramsden Winson dies in Mickleover, Derbyshire - birthdate recorded as 12 Mar 1902.

Questions re her parents:

Morris Vane Charteris, compositor - does he exist? Might he be the same person as, or otherwise connected with, Henry Vane Charteris b 1857 (clerk) who was married with a family in Sheffield in 1901? Henry seems to have been born Edward Reardon or Riordan in Ireland or India or Kent, according to online trees.

Annie Ramsden - who was she? Her Yorkshire surname makes her my most likely DNA link, though I don’t currently have any likely Ramsdens in my tree.

I’d appreciate any help in finding Cicely or her parents before her 1924 marriage :)

Lanarkshire / Unattributed children in Glasgow - whose exactly were they?
« on: Wednesday 07 October 20 11:03 BST (UK)  »
This may be an impossible quest, but I would very much like to identify the parents of two children who became part of my M(a)cGregor family in Glasgow in the 1850s.

They are:

(1) Alfred McArthur/MacGregor, c1844-?. Born in Saltcoats, per 1871 & 1881 census entries.

(2) Margaret Rasley/MacGregor, later Morrison, 1850-1883. Born in Glasgow.

They appear to have been brought by Caroline Jamieson c1821-1908 (how was she related to them?) into her marriage to my ggg-grandfather John Lindsay MacGregor in 1854.

Another constant person is Margaret Campbell otherwise Crawford (bc1805-1811), who may be Caroline’s maternal aunt. Caroline’s parents, according to her death certificate, were John Jamieson and Jean m.s. Campbell. I know nothing more about Caroline’s birth family.

Chronology as follows:

1841 census: Jane McIntyre 55, Margret Campbell 30 and Caroline Jamieson 15 are in Main St, Glasgow.

1851 census: Margaret Crawford 40, Caroline Jamieson 27 (niece), Alfred McArthur 7 (nephew) and Margaret Rasley 7mo (niece) are at 7 Main St, Glasgow.

1854 (April): Caroline Jamieson marries John Lindsay MacGregor in Glasgow.

1861: The MacGregors are at 103 Main St Glasgow with children of the marriage. Also there are Mrs Crawford 53, Alfred Mccarther 16 “relative” and Margaret McGregor “daughter”, 10.

1871: Mrs (Caroline) McGregor (abandoned by John) is at 103A Main St, Glasgow with children including Alfred McGregor 25 “boarder” and Margaret McGregor 18 “daughter”.

1876: Margaret McGregor marries Andrew Morrison in Kelvin, Glasgow, naming parents as John McGregor, surgeon, and Mary McGregor m.s. Crawford.

1881: “Carolin” McGregor is staying with the Morrisons as “boarder”. Alfred A McGregor (33, lithographic printer) is at 103 Main St, Glasgow with two of his quasi-siblings, children of the MacGregor marriage.

1883: Margaret Morrison (formerly Rasley/MacGregor) dies. Parents named on death cert as Alfred McGregor, doctor, and Caroline McGregor m.s. Campbell. (Her husband was the informant).

Alfred McArthur/MacGregor is untraced after this. I’d welcome any ideas on identifying the parentage of these two mystery children.

The Common Room / Help me place Rebecca (born c1813 Gloucestershire) in my tree
« on: Sunday 26 July 20 21:14 BST (UK)  »
My 3x great-grandmother Harriet Elbro had a supposed “sister” Rebecca, whose precise origins I am struggling to find. I’d welcome any help in filling in the gaps in her story.

Harriet and Rebecca were from Gloucestershire, but were in London (specifically Lambeth and Westminster) by the time they were young women, and lived out their adult lives in central London.

Both seem to have had a long-standing connection with a Sophia Bentley née Manwaring (born 1800, Cranbrook, Kent) who was widowed fairly young and lived for decades at 31 Lower Garden St, Westminster. Her daughter Harriet Gibbons née Bentley also features as a marriage witness later on. I have no reason to suppose there was a blood relationship to my Harriet and Rebecca.

My Harriet was born in 1811 in Lower Swell near Stow on the Wold, Gloucestershire, and baptised as the illegitimate daughter of Mary Ann “Elborough” of Lower Swell. As Harriet “Elbro” she married William Haynes in Lambeth in 1839, with Sophia Bentley as a witness - and claimed Thomas Elbro for a father, though this was in fact the name of her maternal uncle. (The other witness was Samuel Hood, perhaps connected with the family of Viscount Hood who employed Harriet, now Haynes, in service in 1841).

In 1851 Harriet and William Haynes had with them at 11 Frederick St, Westminster two lodgers: Rebecca Mason, widow, “wife’s sister” 37 b Stow on the Wold, and her daughter Harriet Mason 6 b St Giles Middlesex.

Rebecca’s story, so far as I know it, is as follows. NB her birth surname is unknown.

c1813-14: Born in Stow on the Wold (per 1851) or Stoke Bishop (per 1861) in Gloucestershire.
1841: Not found.
1845 (14 Jan): Birthdate of daughter Harriet Sophia Mason, per baptism. No birth registration found.
1845 (20 Apr): Baptism (Westminster) of Harriet Sophia, dau of William Mason, carpenter, & Rebecca.
1851: Rebecca and her daughter are with the Haynes family at 11 Frederick St, Westminster.
1853: Rebecca marries widowed labourer James Sullivan, full age, of Regent St. Harriet Gibbons and William Haynes witness. Rebecca’s abode is 11 Frederick St - the Haynes’ address.
1861: Rebecca Sullivan & Harriet, with lodger Sophia Bentley, are at 31 Lower Garden St, Westminster.
1868: Rebecca dies, and her Victoria Park burial record gives her address as Lower Garden St, Westminster.

At present I have her as Rebecca Elbro in my online tree, but there is no evidence of her ever using that surname. Her marriage (if there was one) to William Mason has not been found. When she married James Sullivan she gave her paternal details, oddly, as John Mason, husbandman, deceased.

Another possible maiden surname for Rebecca is Holtom, if she is Harriet’s half-sister. In 1812 Harriet’s mother Mary Ann “Elbrow” married John Holtom in Lower Swell. They had several children in Condicote, Gloucestershire but I have not found a Rebecca among them. At present I have a gap in their family between William 1813 and Thomas 1821.

The Common Room / Missing: Mayzod Roffe (1879-?) and her baby (1909-?)
« on: Wednesday 06 May 20 12:15 BST (UK)  »
Can anybody help me find out what happened to Mayzod Roffe, and her child born in Ceylon in 1909?

Mayzod (likely to be the Mayzod Cecile Roffe b 1879 Dulwich) is not related to me, but her name appears in divorce papers of a couple in my tree.

That couple was Philip Henry Milward (1873-1915) and Rosa Marguerite née Edge (1873-1953), whose (first cousin) marriage was childless.

19 Feb 1901: Marriage of Philip Henry Milward and Rosa Marguerite Edge in Worcestershire
Date unknown: Philip and Rosa move to Cape Town, South Africa - Philip perhaps meets Mayzod there
14 Apr 1906: Miss M C Roffe arrives in Southampton from Cape Town on the Armadale Castle
Date unknown: Philip and Mayzod set up home together in Colombo, Ceylon
16 Jan 1909: Philip and Mayzod’s baby is born in Colombo, Ceylon
20 Dec 1911: Rosa Marguerite Milward presents a divorce petition mentioning Mayzod and the baby
13 Dec 1914: Philip Henry Milward arrives in London from Ceylon for Army service in the war
07 Dec 1915: Capt. Philip Henry Milward dies on the Western Front

Much of the detail comes from the divorce petition, which for some reason Rosa did not proceed with. She remained married to Philip at the time of his death - but what happened to Mayzod, and who was Mayzod’s child? I don’t know whether the child was male or female, let alone a name.

As an aside, both Rosa and Mayzod seem to have been talented artists, so I wonder whether that is how the connection was made. Rosa was a sculptor in her widowhood, and continued to travel widely. Mayzod Roffe appears in several 1890s newspaper reports as having received various awards as a student of fine art.

Any help much appreciated.

Yorkshire (West Riding) / Can anyone help crack my Broadbents from Halifax?
« on: Monday 30 December 19 14:06 GMT (UK)  »
Sarah Broadbent b c1803-4 Halifax is my 4x great-grandmother, but I haven’t been able to trace her with any confidence before her marriage to Judah Chappell.

Here’s what I know of her:

1827 (16 Oct): Sarah Broadbent, spinster, of Halifax marries Judah Chappell of Ovenden, at Halifax parish church. Witnesses: George Pearson, Thos Beaver (both untraced).

1841 census (in Leeds): Sarah Chappell 35, born in county, with Judah and 4 children.
1851 census (in Leeds): Sarah Chappell 47, born Halifax, with Judah and 2 sons George & John.
1861 census (in Leeds): Sarah Chappell 58, born Halifax, with Judah and a boarder Henry Broadbent, 58 b Halifax, a widowed tailor.
1871 census (in Leeds): Sarah Chappell 68, born Halifax, with Judah and a 5yo grandson George Chappell.

Judah Chappell died in Leeds in July 1871 and Sarah may have returned to Halifax, dying there in 1879 aged 74, but this is not confirmed.

Known children: George 1829 Ovenden (my direct line), John 1832 Ovenden, Ellen 1834 Halifax. There is also a Henry Chappell c1840 on the 1841 census with the Chappells, but his birth has not been found.

Any help with finding Sarah’s birth family would be much appreciated. I hoped the boarder Henry Broadbent in 1861 would easily lead me to Sarah’s background, but he hasn’t done so far!

Yorkshire (West Riding) / Eliza Holling(s)worth of Leeds b 1832
« on: Tuesday 05 November 19 10:08 GMT (UK)  »
Can anyone help me untangle my Holling(s)worth line in Leeds?

Eliza Hollingsworth was my 3x g-grandmother.  She married George Chappell (spelt Chappelle on this record) at St Peter’s, Leeds on 17 September 1851, aged 19. Both were of Dufton’s Yard.  A line was struck through where Eliza’s paternal details should have been. Witnesses were Benjamin Musgrave and Edwin Moore.

Eliza gave her birthplace as Woodhouse, Yorks in 1861 and Leeds in 1871. She died in 1875 aged 43.

I believe she was baptised at St Peter’s, Leeds on 19 Feb 1832 with a possible cousin George baptised the same day:

George Hollingworth born 15 Oct 1831 s/o Joseph (clothier) and Hannah, of Little London
Eliza Hollingworth born 15 Jan 1832 d/o Elizabeth (spinster), of Little London

None of these people have been reliably traced in 1841 or 1851. For obvious reasons I think and hope that Joseph may be linked to (perhaps a brother of) Elizabeth, and I am therefore keen to trace him as well as Elizabeth, about whom I know nothing that is not in the 1832 baptism record of her daughter.

The George Hollingworth who married Mary Ann Neuth at St Peter, Leeds on 18 Oct 1853 looks likely to be a son of Joseph (clothier, of Woodhouse) and Emma Wells who married at St Peter’s in 1831. Could this be the right family in disguise - with Emma wrongly entered as Hannah on George’s 1832 baptism? The “clothier” and “Woodhouse” links are promising. Joseph and Emma, who also had a son Isaac in 1834, are easily found in the censuses, living in Hunslet.

I keep getting hints about a family with some similar names in Hull, but suspect they are a red herring.

Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing / New matches - related to me but not my parents
« on: Friday 18 October 19 13:36 BST (UK)  »
An odd development today.

The background is that I have DNA tested with 23andMe, as have both my parents, my sister and my sister's children.

Everything is as it should be - my parents are really my parents, I share 50% of my DNA with each of them and just over 50% with my sister etc.  Nothing to worry about there.

Today I have 2 new matches, A and B. They are both X-chromosome matches (both female, as am I). My match with A is about 22cM and with B is about 20cM, single segments on the X chromosome with no other matching segments between me and either of them. 

As between themselves A and B also overlap on this X region - half-identical as to 13cM - and also share a similarly-sized overlap on Chr1.

Nobody else in my family has any match at all with either A or B - not even a trivial one. Given that both my parents are tested, and other matches are working as expected, how can this be?

Surrey / Titson family: my brick wall
« on: Saturday 03 August 19 11:48 BST (UK)  »
This line has proved really hard.  On her deathbed my great-aunt said they were “gypsies”.  Who knows. 

I started a thread a long time ago: (things have moved on a little since then.  I do not believe the Lancs baptisms are relevant).

William Titson was my 4x g-grandfather. His life as known:

Born Surrey (per 1841 census) c1802-6
Married to Ann Millington, 27 March 1826 Islington.  Witnesses: Robert Farley, Eliza Smith.
Three known daughters born 1827-1835: Mary Ann, *Elizabeth, Jane Charlotte (*my ancestor)
1841: Living in (slum) Grotto Place, Southwark. William (35) is a measure maker.
1847: Wife Ann dies in Grotto Place, of typhus, in December, aged 41.
1848: William dies in Grotto Place, of typhus, in January, aged 45.

I have recently been able to establish that William’s mother was Susannah bc 1772-3, maiden name unknown, who married as widow Susannah Titson to Thomas Remnant in Chiddingfold in 1806.  I am confident in this Susannah because I have a DNA link to a descendant of this remarriage.  Unfortunately Susannah died in late 1838 - early 1839 (buried at Chiddingfold 2 Jan 1839 aged 66) so does not appear in any census.

I would love to know who Susannah was (maiden name), and who was the father of William Titson.  Any ideas much appreciated  :)

Technical Help / Ancestry error message: “not a valid GEDCOM file”. Any ideas?
« on: Wednesday 03 July 19 23:18 BST (UK)  »
I have never maintained an online tree - it has always been offline, in .ged format, on successive versions of Family Historian.

I now want to upload it as a private tree so that I can link it to my forthcoming DNA results.  I have gone through the motions but it keeps saying my tree file “does not appear to be a valid GEDCOM file”.

According to its properties it is a GEDCOM file, size 9.58MB which is well below the limit of 75MB.  Even creating a new .ged copy doesn’t solve the problem.  Has anyone experienced similar, or got any ideas about what might be the problem?

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