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Messages - flutterbymusic

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Hertfordshire / Re: James & Sarah VENABLES - Cheshunt
« on: Friday 21 February 14 22:51 GMT (UK)  »
Sorry to bump up an old thread, but I feel I have something to add.

I have a birth certificate for an Emma Wilkinson - no father listed, born at Pan Tile Hall (or pantile) in 1976, previously mentioned as a household for some of the Venables in this thread.

I have come to the conclusion that the father must be one of the Dysons, most probably James William Dyson. They were neighbours in 1871 and James is at Pan Tile in 1881.

Emma went on to marry Alfred Ruskin, the son of Jane Ballard, daughter of John Ballard, b.1790 - sibling of Elizabeth and Charlotte (who married the Venables brothers) and son of William and Mary Ann.

London & Middlesex Lookup Requests / Re: Deloche family 1891 - missing?!
« on: Thursday 28 February 13 18:09 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Sasha

You can search for a decree absolute at the National Archives site here

the department code is J 77, there's a possible entry in 1896/1897

Alternatively, there are some divorce records online at Ancestry in the UK, Civil Divorce Records, 1858-1911, the same record and images are there.


Hi Dawn, thank you for your help! Unfortunately the record you found is for another Isabella & Charles (it contains a marriage certificate for a lady called Isabella Grove married in 1888).


London & Middlesex Lookup Requests / Re: Deloche family 1891 - missing?!
« on: Tuesday 26 February 13 21:53 GMT (UK)  »
Afraid I've now opened up a can of worms.

First, CaroleW, son Thomas only 2 in 1901, not 12 (and his baptism recorded in London baptisms) so not around in 1891.

Secondly, think I have found Frederick and Isabella although you might not think so at first.

On 1901 Census Isabella shown as born Southwark (1911 states Westminster).  Not having any luck searching for a likely Isabella born Southwark I then looked for Isabella's born Westminster.  An Isabella R. Williams came up and an  Isabella Rosina Williams birth was registered Sept.qtr.1887 St. George Hanover Square.
Looked at 1891 Census and then couldn't believe my eyes:

1891 - 139 Regency Street, St. Margaret & St. John the Evangelist, Westminster (ref.RG12 - 78 - 207 - 68)

Frederick Williams  Head  35   Stationers Assistant      b. Westminster
Isabella Williams    Wife   30    Laundry Woman           b. East Moseley, Surrey
William H. Williams  Son    11                                        b. Westminster
Alice J. Williams       Dau.     7                                        b. Southwark
Isabella R. Williams Dau.     3                                        b. Westminster
Albert E. Elliott   brother in law    18                              b. Westminster

As you can see, apart from the surname all the details match Frederick Deloche.

Did some digging and, as Albert's surname indicates, Isabella was born Isabella Elliott and in 1877 at Westminster married a Charles Williams.   You can find them on the census in 1881 on RG11 - 119 - 24 - 41.    Charles' age, birthplace and occupation do not match the details given for Frederick Williams in 1891.   

So, it looks like Frederick Deloche had separated from wife Johanna sometime between 1881 and 1891 and that daughter Isabella Rosina was his daughter with Isabella Williams (nee Elliott).   Why he has 'adopted' the name Williams I can't say unless Isabella was the informant to the enumerator and gave his name as such.   I'm assuming at this stage that Isabella was Frederick's daughter with Isabella Williams as I can't think he'd claim her as his daughter in 1901 if she'd simply been Isabella's daughter and not his.   

Checked this backwards and forwards and there is no Frederick Williams that fits the 1891 entry plus evidence shows Isabella's husband was actually a Charles Williams bc.1855/6 Chelsea and there's a possible death entry in 1885.   If that is him he couldn't have fathered Isabella Rosina leaving Frederick the likely candidate.

Only way to confirm if Frederick is the father would be to get Isabella Rosina Williams birth certificate.

Will leave you to digest (it takes some doing).


Hello all, apologies for boosting an old topic but wanted to provide an update. I have yet to get Isabella's birth certificate however recent research led to several newspaper articles from 1881 reporting that Isabella Williams had attended a Westminster court asking to divorce her husband to live with "another young man". The magistrate was the 1st cousin of Alfred Lord Tennyson, a Mr D'Eyncourt. Her case was basically laughed off and she was told not to compromise her character. Newspapers as far as New Zealand sympathised with her however, she and her husband clearly had such dislike for each other by the time she turned 22 that they was able to plan out every last point - who would get the knives and forks to which children. Her story was compared to many a novel of the time.

I wouldn't have found out this information if it wasn't for the help provided here. I just need to confirm how whether or not she was ever able to divorce Charles of if he had in fact died. Otherwise it seems there was a mighty affair going on.

Sadly Isabella Williams died aged 33. I'm hoping to pick up her death certificate soon.


England / Re: Frederick Pearson of Kent, Battersea & Bromborough, Cheshire?
« on: Monday 06 August 12 11:07 BST (UK)  »
What a fantastic find! I am very surprised - I just expected that he moved with the factory. To me that looks very much like him, the intended location of Cheshire confirming it. I have not researched the millitary before the world wars before, what sort of information is there to find out there about Frederick?



England / Frederick Pearson of Kent, Battersea & Bromborough, Cheshire?
« on: Monday 06 August 12 01:30 BST (UK)  »
Hello. I have recently been researching my 2nd Great Grandfather, Frederick Pearson b. abt. 1835, in Lamberhurst, Kent.

I know very little about his early years, although I did find a Christening record for a Frederick Pearson who was Christened on the 5th April 1835 in Lamberhurst, his parents being Anne and James.

There is a free marriage record in late 1874, where the 39 year old Frederick marries 24 year old Sarah Jane Ada Rigby (my 2nd Great Grandmother, whom I too know little about). The marriage takes place in Cheshire.

By the 1881 census, Frederick and Sarah are living at 27 Manor Place, Bromborough Pool in Bebington, just across the water from Liverpool. The address formed part of a model village created for workers of Price's Patent Candle Company. The factory had moved to the area from Battersea in 1854, with the Manor Place address being built in 1956. Workers from the Battersea factory moved with the company. The village became inspiration for the more well known Port Sunlight. The last time I can trace him is in 1891, when he still seems to work for the company but lives elsewhere. By 1901, Sarah is a widow.

I have had no luck tracing Frederick before 1881 on the census. Any help is much appreciated.


England / Re: Connection to Sir John Bramston and Alice Abdy?
« on: Thursday 04 November 10 13:16 GMT (UK)  »
Hello, thanks for your help! I have Ancestry but my subscription runs out today and I haven't found any good trees for the family on there.

I will PM you tedscout!


England / Connection to Sir John Bramston and Alice Abdy?
« on: Friday 29 October 10 21:07 BST (UK)  »
First of all, I hope I've posted this in the right place! I've not put it in a certain section as the birth places etc. are all a bit different.

Basically, my 3rd Great Grandfather was an Abdy Bramston Smith Ramsey. His name was made up of 4 surnames and he was born 27 Oct 1796 in Bishops Stortford, Hertfordshire, England. He later moved to London. Before Abdy was born, his mother and father Elizabeth Smith and Samuel Ramsey had another son called Abdy Bramston Ramsey who died shortly after his birth. The fact Abdy Bramston Smith Ramsey had the same name with Smith added shows how desperate they were to carry on the name. Abdy was named after his grandfather Abdy Bramston Smith born 30 Apr 1733 in St. Giles, Great Hallingbury, Essex, England. Problem is, all is know from then is his fathers name - a Richard Smith born 1710 in Essex.

Richard was a huntsman for Jacob Houblon Esq at the Manor House in Hallingbury.

Because the mother of Abdy Bramston Smith is not known, I've been looking up the Abdy and Bramston names. I realise that Sir John Bramston senior at the very least was from Essex county and his son of the same name married Alice Abdy in 1635, although he may have been born in London? I have a strong feeling that this must be where the names were joined and where the Abdy Bramston name came from. Its possible the connection was known for a long time as the name continued at least until my great grandfather's brother had it (well, just Abdy, so maybe not.)

There was also a marriage I have come across from a female relative of John Bramston who married an Abdy, but I have found little about it so that is also a possiblity.

So now all I have to do is try and fill in the gap of about 100 years. Problem is, I've been looking around but I'm finding it hard to find some information on the Bramston/ Abdy children/ Grandchildren. Has anyone got any ideas? Anyone seen a book which could help fill me in?

I have to add I'm quite new to family research and got most of this information from a cousin!

More information on the Bramstons and Abdy's if you need it:,_the_younger,_the_elder


London & Middlesex Lookup Requests / Re: Deloche family 1891 - missing?!
« on: Thursday 28 October 10 15:36 BST (UK)  »
Woops, I meant she married Alfred Wedge! Alfred Frederick Charles Wedge was her son.

Talking of which, her sons and daughter have her maiden name listed as Deloche on their birth registrations.

London & Middlesex Lookup Requests / Re: Deloche family 1891 - missing?!
« on: Thursday 28 October 10 15:35 BST (UK)  »
I'm not surprised you are shocked!    Trust it to be me to open this can of worms.......

I note that Isabella Rosina Wedge was born 2/6/1887, d.1970 Southwark.

The only way to confirm she is indeed the Isabella Rosina Williams born 1887 is by getting the birth certificate which would confirm birthdate.  Father could be named as Frederick but as we know they weren't married possibly father's name could be left blank although I'm sure Frederick was her father.   Really can't say but birth date would be the clincher.

Sorry to have put the cat amongst the pigeons.


Don't apologise! I think its made things truly interesting. I'm very thankful! I hadn't actually noticed before that I didn't have a birth confirmation as Isabella Rosina Deloche as I have instead got her birth information from her death certificate (of which I have an original copy of). Yes, she married Alfred Frederick Charles Wedge and so you have the correct death date.

Not sure if you've seen it already but I guess to easiest way of showing you all what I have so far is linking to my Ancestry tree.

Yeah, I think I will have to get the birth certificate. Although it seems that in the Census Frederick may have been lying to make sure it looked like they were married (too much hassle to change kids names) and Isabella has been listed as Williams so that she doesn't stand out, I guess?

It does make me wonder if Isabella knew much about Johanna and Isabella as I guess she grew up with Rose as her mother figure. Definitely something to look into!

I will find the records you have found now and add them to the tree.

Thanks once again!


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