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how do you come up with this stuff and so fast?  Sounds like a good possibly.  Horton-Smith, the author of the note on the portrait back, was related to the Says, that much is clear. He doesn't seem much interested in the Bemisters  but of course if Charles Greene Say married Mary Bemister then  the Bemisters would be in his maternal line. 

I guess we're not clear how John Bemister Sr is related to Says but maybe a cousin of Mary Say?

okay I'll try to fill in the ?? with info from esdel and Jennifer.  Don't think there will be much new but at least as complete as I can make it.

In the center of the back of the miniature portrait is the ID of the sitter:
Mr. W.Bemister
aged 63
1838

In a different hand is the info written by Lionel Graham Horton Horton-Smith on April 4, 1920:

Miss Grace Say, referred to hereon below, was the only child of my great great great grandfather Charles Greene Say (who died between 22 July 1774 and 22 July 1775) by his second wife Mary.

L.G.H. H-S. 4/4/1920

The note continues:

This picture was recently given to my mother Mrs. Marilla Horton-Smith by my maternal aunt-in-law Mrs. Mary Anne Baily (nee Gibson); and was given by my said mother today to me. The said Mr. W. Bemister is doubtless the William Bemister mentioned as "the late William Bemister" in the will of Miss (Mrs?) Grace Say dated 22 February 184? and is doubtless some relative of this "Mr. John Bemister" to whom (by her codicil dated 21  May 184?) the said testatrix (?) bequeathed the miniature of his (her?) late  mother Mrs. Mary Viat (?)   (formerly Mrs. Mary Say).
L.Graham H. Horton-Smith
Barrister-at-Law
Easter Sunday 4/4/1920



please see additional info about Horton Horton-Smith, his parents and wife and others in Jennifer's and esdel 's messages.  
 Jennifer just posted a death date for Grace Say as 1841 and age as 70.

sorry I just can't  decipher the surname of Mrs Mary Say  who apparently remarried. It begins with "Vi" and ends in "t"with possibly "ai" in between.

well, since the writer identifies himself as a "barrister-at-law"  and uses legal terms as "hereon" and "the said". 

the back of the frame measures 5 1/2" by 5" and is covered by brown paper.  The ink appears to be brown as well and in tiny scrawls.

if I knew how to upload camera photos, I would try  to send a photo.

in the meantime, I'll have another go tomorrow when the light is better.

one rather oblique path if someone was so interested, might be to approach Say/Bemister by the writer himself, Horton-Smith. 

truthfully, I'd be just as happy to deliver a photo and info to someone who is pursuing these lines as his own.  I'm interested in selling the miniature and in a perfect world, to a descendant of these lines. That way my conscience is clear about passing on info to those whose ancestor this is.

I have enough loose ends of my own!  I'm American living in the UK and pursuing my ancestors who fled these shores more than 400 years ago on the Mayflower and other early ships.

okay, I hope I haven't misled you but here is what I have. I have a miniature portrait with handwritten info on the back written in 1920.  Keep in mind that I may not be totally accurate in trying to decipher the writing.

I believe the portrait is of  M (? or is it Mr.) W Bemister, aged 63, 1838 (?)

The info reads:  Miss Grace Say, referred to hereon below, was the only child of my great great great grandfather, Charles Greene Say (who died between 22 July 1774 and 22 July 1775) by his second wife Mary. 
L.G.H.H-S. 4/4/1920

This picture was recently given to my mother Mrs. Martha Horton-Smith (?) by my maternal aunt-in-law Mrs. Mary Anne Baily (?) nee Gibson; and was given to my said mother today to me. The said (Mrs. W.  ??) is (mother?) to William Bemister mentioned as "the late William Bemister" in the will of Miss (Mrs?) Grace Say  dated 22 February1842 and he is doubtless some relative of this "M" John Bemister" to whom (by his codicil  dated 1842 (?) the said  ? ? ? ? of his late mother  Mrs Mary ? (formerly Mrs (?) Mary Say.

L.Graham H. Horton-Smith
Barrister -at-Law
Easter Sunday (  ??date)

Not sure if any of this is much help to family lines.  I collect and sometimes sell portrait miniatures but I thought before I disposed of it, someone with Say-Bemister lines might be interested. Sorry I can't be sure of all the words and spellings.  The name and date of the portrait is in a different hand than that of Horton-Smith.

I've spent much time on my own genealogy so I can appreciate any tidbits  that might be out there.

thanks for your reply. I just joined today so I really am unclear about all of this even though I've read the instructions.


I have found some discussion on these lines and members names but I don't know how to contact them. The messages date from 2010 but the members are still active.

many thanks-