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Messages - Forfarian

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Ayrshire / Re: Armour family
« on: Yesterday at 19:59 »
Thanks very much for such helpful advice, it's nice to know I can drop the search for a clan!  Is the same true for tartans? 

Does the Armour family have a tartan we generally identify with, or is that another concept that isn't as relevant for Lowland Scots? 
As far as I know there is no Armour tartan.

The authoritative source for tartans is the Scottish Register of Tartans

Lanarkshire / Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
« on: Yesterday at 12:24 »
I'm pretty sure my Clyde Iron Works ancestors are buried in the Corbett Street Cemetery. One headstone (Ken McK) is against the wall that separates the old church graveyard from the rest of the cemetery and the other known headstone (Ken's parents & grandparents Donald Mcks) is opposite that one.
Ah. That's the Tollcross cemetery, not the Old Monkland one.

It comes under the City of Glasgow. See so the older burial records there are probably on microfilm in the Mitchell Library.

Lanarkshire / Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
« on: Yesterday at 10:46 »
I've twice enquired of a couple of councils plus the Mitchel Library and was told the family burials were too early to be in the "Monkland" cemetery.
Old Monkland Parish Kirk dates from 1790 and has its own kirkyard. Next to it is the enormous Old Monkland Cemetery which was opened in 1875.

Compare,-4.17223 (1859) with,-4.17223 (1897).

In the panel to the left of the map is a blue button. Slide this to the left to see how the cemetery has expanded since 1897.

See also shows Old Monkland Parish Kirk and part of the kirkyard. shows the cemetery as it is now.

The fact is that the Tollcross kirk graveyard is within the Old Monkland cemetery.
That does surprise me, because Tollcross is three or four miles west of Old Monkland Cemetery. It is in the parish of Barony, not the parish of Old Monkland, and is now in the City of Glasgow whereas Old Monkland Cemetery is in North Lanarkshire.

There is more than one surviving kirk at Tollcross, the oldest being Tollcross Central There is a burial ground next to this kirk. Of course this is not the only Tollcross in Scotland, and it's always possible that there was another Tollcross in the parish of Old Monkland, though so far I haven't found it on any maps.

This map shows the parish boundaries as in 1832. I don't know if it will open for you as the full map, but I have zoomed in and can see Tollcross at upper left and Old Monkland Parish Kirk at lower right of my zoomed-in view, and the Old Monkland/Barony parish boundary (yellow on the O/M side, orange on the Barony side) between them.

See also and

Lanarkshire / Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
« on: Thursday 14 October 21 22:36 BST (UK)  »

Lanarkshire / Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
« on: Thursday 14 October 21 21:06 BST (UK)  »
Yes, they are very useful. From the ones I have looked, they seem to be from churches other than the mainstream Church of Scotland - assorted Episcopal, Free and Dissenting denominations.

I was merely pointing out that there was a Presbyterian Kirk in Old Monkland long before the dates of any of these baptisms.

Some people have the idea that 'The Presbyterian Church' is or was a specific denomination. It isn't. It is a system of church hierarchy adopted first by the Church of Scotland in the 17th century and later also by the many denominations that split off from the Church of Scotland.

Argyllshire / Re: Still stuck on Robert Walker's parents
« on: Thursday 14 October 21 20:02 BST (UK)  »
Thanks, GR2. Glad to know I wasn't imagining things.

Lanarkshire / Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
« on: Thursday 14 October 21 19:05 BST (UK)  »
I found this online baptism database extremely helpful. It gives information of baptisms, parents and places of work (eg. Clyde Ironworks) prior to Old Monkland having its own Presbyterian kirk.
Someone must have got confused somewhere along the line.

The Church of Scotland has been a Presbyterian denomination since 1638 and the C of S baptism registers in the Parish of Old Monkland start in 1695. These registers are among those available on Scotland's People.

So the (Presbyterian) C of S has been the dominant church in Scotland, and in Old Monkland in particular, for the best part of 400 years.

The Clyde Ironworks were established in 1786, long after Old Monkland Parish Kirk became Presbyterian.

Argyllshire / Re: Still stuck on Robert Walker's parents
« on: Thursday 14 October 21 18:41 BST (UK)  »

I have always been under the impression that 'Widow xxx' meants that the person was the widow of Mr xxx. Does anyone have an authoritative source to confirm this or otherwise?

Scotland / Re: Why Can't I find my Ancestor's Birth/Marriage/Death?
« on: Tuesday 12 October 21 13:52 BST (UK)  »
Following on from the previous post, this is because the situation regarding deaths is different.

First, the church took the view that once you were dead and your body had been prayed over at your funeral and your soul consigned to Heaven, there was no longer any need to concern itself about your immortal soul. So in many parishes there is quite simply no record at all of who was buried when.

There are several sorts of records for finding out about a death before 1855
- the minority of OPRs that do include a register of burials. there is a list of these at - go for the county-by-county .pdf versions
- records of payments for the mortcloth. A mortcloth was a piece of cloth, sometimes richly embroidered, that was used to drape over a coffin during the funeral services, and you hired it from the parish for the occasion. Some parishes had more than one mortcloth, of varying quality and hired at varying fees. Records of income from the hire of the mortcloth can often be found in the Kirk Session (KS) minutes or accounts, which are available on SP
- gravestones. These were expensive and only a small proportion of the population could aspire to one. However the information on them is becoming ever easier to access because of the large numbers of organisations and volunteers who are recording and publishing them
- cemetery records. In some large cities, cemeteries were set up by private enterprise, for example several of the cemeteries in Edinburgh, and their burial records have often survived and are now mostly in the care of local authority archives
- newspapers. Again, this is something only wealthy or prominent people would have aspired to before 1855

And in all cases I should add 'other' because there are bound to be some I haven't thought of!

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