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Messages - Chris Pyne

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Thanks for all the references to the Herbert family in US.

I am getting better now at following the US sources in FamilySearch.

Found the 1908 marriage of Hannah Herbert interesting. That middle name of Celina could be a link to her mother's sister, Selina,  from 1851 Census. 

With the absence of Mary Anne's younger siblings in the US records I am leaning more towards looking for their death records in Poplar.  The theory being  that family lose their younger children and decide to make a new start in the US with the surviving daughter Mary Anne.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed . It is now time to add these to FamilySearch tree and see if that brings up any links with other research.

Sorry Carol,

I have been engrossed in another thread in US Emigration.

I really like the version with the restoration of the collar and necklace.  I think it is an amazing portrait and expect it was a significant cost.


Thanks very much everyone.

Looks like I have at least 4 children to follow up; Ann Elizabeth; 1874; Sara Herbert 1876; William Herbert 1881 ; Hannah Herbert 1890 ( although that is a long gap between last two)

I am confused by Social Security application for Hannah Waldt. Waldt looks similar to Walds to me? Hannah Herbert (1890) would not have married Albert E Walds until c 1908 judging from the information on 1910 Census. And born 17 Sep 1891 reference looks like a error for Hannah Herbert born 17 Sep 1890  from FamilySearch?

Got It !  It is like the UK 1939 Register, updated later. Original application for Hannah Herbert ( born 17 Sept FamilySearch 1890 / Social Security 1891) by her parents  James Herbert and Mary Ann Payne.  And sometime later, changed to reflect her married name of Hannah Walds/Waldt.

 Thanks Sandra,

That looks promising for the father.  So if father and daughter were in New York how many more do I need to say that the whole family emigrated?

I think I need some help from members familiar with US sources.

The question is did Mary Ann emigrate to New York alone prior to 1877 marriage ?
or did the whole family go to New York ?

Accessed via FamilySearch :
Mary Anne Payne ; father John Payne; mother Sarah Downes ; marries James Herbert 3 Jun 1877 Manhattan, New York, US
original source New York Marriages 1686-1980.

I think this event could match with Mary Anne Payne 1851 Tiverton ; father John Payne 1811  ; mother 1820 Sarah Down ; married 1842
with other children William Payne 1842; Elizabeth Payne 1846; Sarah Payne 1848 as per 1851 Census  Cullompton

Although Mary Ann's birth  appears to be registered as Mary Ann Pain 1850 Tiverton Quarter 4 Vol 10 Page 259 mother's name Down.

I have found the family in Poplar, Middlesex in 1861.
Class: RG 9/301/169 p11

But there are so many possibilities once all the children become adults in London. I don't think they are there.


 Thanks MonicaL and Bbart for the extra research.

Maybe the properties on Fosters Street where small so Susan lodged at number 26  and kept her children at no 27 under supervision of eldest daughter Harriett ?  Perhaps that was more convenient that looking for lodgings where the whole family could reside together.

I had not spotted the significance of Henry Bennett on 1861 Census.  On FamilySearch I have a note that only the parents are present and the children,  because they are on next page,  have been split into a separate record.  Findmypast keeps them together as single household. 

At present I am doing a mini study of all individuals born in first 10 years of the GRO District of Tiverton who had the same soundex form of Pine. So mixed in with my direct ancestors of this period and location I will likely find some cousins, distant relations and interconnections between family names.


  R for Richard Payne sounds good.

 Perhaps Susan used her birth surname for this marriage, rather than her 1st married name, if her
 Father is Bennett.


 I am getting better at this but ;

Profession of William ? Looks like an X in there?

The Ink Blots have defeated me on Father's name for William, which must be the most common first name in the family line so they are so awkward to trace back.

Susan's father's name will hopefully be very useful as she is a widow and help to lock-in her 1st marriage. 


  Thank you very much, Japeflakes, Hoobaloo, Skippy2, Ian Nelson and Trishanne.  They are all exceptionally well done.  The portrait is restored to its original condition.

It is very special to me as it is the oldest image I have so far of my family , not quite a direct line, a Great Aunt several times with an interesting and well documented life history.

Thanks again


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