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Messages - karen58

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1
The Common Room / Re: Probate, 1750 - Memorial of a Written Will
« on: Sunday 03 September 23 07:26 BST (UK)  »
Hi Watson,

It does seem more than a little irregular being in a different jurisdiction. Devilish to explain.

My initial thought was that it had something to do with the executors being so tardy bringing the will to probate and they were being reprimanded. But that doesn’t explain the jurisdiction either.

Thank you for you help and interest anyway.

This one might have to go into the unexplainable pile.

Warm regards
Karen

2
The Common Room / Re: Probate, 1750 - Memorial of a Written Will
« on: Thursday 31 August 23 09:26 BST (UK)  »
Dear Watson,

I'm sorry it didn't work.

Will try again with a new link.

3
The Common Room / Re: Probate, 1750 - Memorial of a Written Will
« on: Wednesday 30 August 23 10:59 BST (UK)  »
Hello Watson,
Oops that didn't work. Too many characters. I'm wondering if a link to my cloud account would work if it was copied in a PM?
I'll give it a try

4
The Common Room / Re: Probate, 1750 - Memorial of a Written Will
« on: Wednesday 30 August 23 10:52 BST (UK)  »
Hi Watson,

Thank you for your interest in my questions.

I've sent you a PM with the transcription of the will.

Warm regards
Karen

5
The Common Room / Re: Probate, 1750 - Memorial of a Written Will
« on: Tuesday 29 August 23 22:00 BST (UK)  »
Hello Watson,

So sorry, meant to say: the testator didn't own land outside of Saddleworth.

And yes, the two executors nominated in the will swore the oath and are noted on the wrapper of the will.

Also, the will was definitely a Chester will.

6
The Common Room / Re: Probate, 1750 - Memorial of a Written Will
« on: Tuesday 29 August 23 09:07 BST (UK)  »
Hello Watson,

Thank you, I had forgotten about the Julian to Gregorian calendar change. The wrapper on the will is dated 12th May 1750.

With regards to jurisdictions. I am certain that the testator does own land outside of Saddleworth. At least he does not mention property beyond Saddleworth in his will.

Warm regards
Karen


 

7
The Common Room / Probate, 1750 - Memorial of a Written Will
« on: Monday 28 August 23 11:05 BST (UK)  »
Hi all,

This regards a probate issued 12 May 1750 and signed by the surrogate, John Heginbottom. He was the Curate of Saddleworth in West Riding Yorkshire.

Although Saddleworth was in the West Riding, it was a chapelry in the Parish of Rochdale Lancashire, so probates were proved in Chester.

To be sure, the will was archived at Chester.

The executors swore the oath 27 April 1750.

But the testator died 22 August 1739 in Saddleworth some eleven years earlier. I can't imagine why the delay in probate?

Below the Rev Heginbottom's signature is a paragraph signed by the Deputy Register:

A Memorial of the within written Will
was registered at Wakefield the Twenty Eighth
Day of ffebruary Seventeen Hundred and
fforty Nine near Twelve at Noon In
Book A3 page 637 and Number 771

My questions are;

1. What is a memorial of a will? My understanding of the word memorial is that it was some type of petition. Did someone contest the will?

2. Why was it registered 28 February 1749, 13 months before probate was issued?

3. Why was the memorial registered at Wakefield rather than Manchester of Chester? Especially when Manchester is much closer to Saddleworth.

4. What does Book A3 page 637 and Number 771 refer to?

5. What could be the reason for the delay in probate?

Thank you
Karen


8
The Common Room / Re: Leases for Lives and Rights Reserved Out of Property
« on: Wednesday 23 August 23 12:08 BST (UK)  »
Hello Bookbox

Thank you for the link. I am very grateful. It certainly is a good possibility.

And yes, I agree with you. The word tenement seemed to be applied to both leaseholds and freehold. This is particularly noticeable in William Blackston Commentaries, which is why it can be difficult to understand which he is referring to.

Warm Regards
Karen


9
The Common Room / Re: Leases for Lives and Rights Reserved Out of Property
« on: Wednesday 23 August 23 10:03 BST (UK)  »
Hello Bookbox,

My dilemma is I feel confident that Knarr was a leasehold. Knarr was an estate owned by the Lord of the Manor of Saddleworth, James Farrer.

Also, in the passage in his will, Robert Senior did use the word tenement, in law meaning anything that is held rather than owned.

According to the Manorial Court Roll, Robert Junior and another person were granted separate leases for three lives in 1750, each having half of the estate.

James Farrer’s manor was mapped in 1770 and only the estates under leasehold were included in the map. No freeholds were illustrated. Attached is the extract of the map for Knarr and the key. (source: Mapping Saddleworth, Volume II, Manuscript Maps of the Parish 1625 -1822, Saddleworth Historical Society, 2010.

The keys show who the leaseholders were and which enclosures they were leasing.

The key for Knarr shows that James Winterbottom (1735 - 1801) was the leaseholder of half of the estate.

James Winterbottom (1735 - 1801) was Robert Winterbottom Junior's son. He was born at Knarr and baptised 05 July 1735 at St Chad's Church, Saddleworth, the 'Son of Robert Winterbottom, Yeoman, and Ann his wife de Knarr'.

James Farrer died in 1791 and directed his executors to sell the manor.

James Winterbottom (1735 - 1801) purchased the estate from James Farrer’s executors at the auction in Huddersfield in April 1791. I don’t have a copy of that document yet but it has been verified by Saddleworth Historical Society.

However, land tax records from 1784 to 1791 list Jas Farrer Esquire as the owner and Jas Winterbottom as the occupier. Then the 1792 and 1793 records show that James Winterbottom is the owner/occupier.

James Winterbottom (1735 - 1801) devised Knarr to his sons in 1801. In his will he mentions all of the enclosures listed on the key and no others.
(source: WCW/Supra/C599B/33, Archdeaconry of Chester Probate Records, Lancashire Archives, James Winterbottom, Clothier of Knarr, 24 Aug 1801.)

Thank you for your help and interest in my little challenge nonetheless.

Warm regards
Karen

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