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Messages - Dulciebun

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1
Family History Beginners Board / Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« on: Tuesday 29 June 21 14:21 BST (UK)  »
What exactly is a 'hawker' and did women do this too? I've never properly known.

One of the articles you kindly showed me said that the Irish moved around "like shoals of fish" and were prepared to be nomadic in order to find work (put food on the table).
Some people think this constant shifting-around is a fault of character (i.e. the Irish didn't seem able to stay in the same place) - but surely they miss the point?  You have to go where the money is, or you starve...



My granddad first went to England when he was a lad in his teens with a gang of haymakers and  harvesters. He was a "spalpeen", "an spailpin fanach", "the wandering labourer". Gangs of Irish haymakers were known as "scythe-men" or "July barbers". One of his memories was his group leaving their lodgings at midnight after finishing their haymaking stint in Lancashire and crossing into Yorkshire a couple of hours later, removing their boots so they could pass silently through a settlement where local men had fought with them in an earlier year.   


Maiden Stone
Thanks so much for this.
Your granddad's testimony is valuable - and rather alarming!
So there was always a potential for violence, when these Irish came over for work.

Do you have any more stories from your granddad?
It's helping me to understand how my own family must have lived, while trying to establish a new base in late 19th century England.

Also: it disturbs me to find that nomadic people looking for work are classed as 'vagrants'. It seems insulting.
Just because a person doesn't have a fixed home at a particular point doesn't make them a criminal.
 Of course, there are are always a minority of humans who live a lawless life, but people who are trying to work aren't usually those.
But I can see why travelling peoples could be seen as a threat, and it's still happening today, e.g. I lived on the UK south coast for a while, and there were terrible problems when the Eastern European economic migrants flooded in, and literally took over some of our coastal towns. [The locals were up in arms.]

D

2
Family History Beginners Board / Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« on: Monday 28 June 21 07:06 BST (UK)  »
No she’s mine.
At the time Maiden Stone and dublin1850 were discussing how names could change in different records.
Sorry to confuse you.
I just referred to the name as my ‘favourite’ because I had gone on so much about ‘Julia’ Rice.

Heywood, morning
That's OK!

Julia is a lovely name, it goes way back to the Romans I think?

Regarding my original question: I am focusing on the idea that 'Turet' = SARAH.
I've found a John Rice + Sarah in Middlesbrough in a later census, their ages are 12 years apart (she's the older one), just as on the Seaham 1851. I will follow this up and post up some more details today.

D

3
Family History Beginners Board / Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« on: Monday 28 June 21 07:02 BST (UK)  »

  What were the 3 versions of your female ancestor's forename?
And what is missing from her maiden surname in the birth index?

 They were in a West Lancashire agricultural district on 1841 census (taken in summer), men ag. labs, women hawkers. They'd moved to Preston by 1851 and were working in mills. 
There were more opportunities for paid work in England than in Ireland.

Maiden Stone, thank you

What exactly is a 'hawker' and did women do this too? I've never properly known.

One of the articles you kindly showed me said that the Irish moved around "like shoals of fish" and were prepared to be nomadic in order to find work (put food on the table).
Some people think this constant shifting-around is a fault of character (i.e. the Irish didn't seem able to stay in the same place) - but surely they miss the point?  You have to go where the money is, or you starve...

D


4
Family History Beginners Board / Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« on: Monday 28 June 21 06:49 BST (UK)  »
Just to go back to my ‘favourite’ name, I spent a long time searching for our Julia. Eventually, I found her registered and baptised as Joanna but on the census, married and died as Julia.

Heywood
I'm confused now!
Is this the same Julia d.1856 Easington?
D

5
Family History Beginners Board / Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« on: Saturday 26 June 21 19:35 BST (UK)  »
I'm also studying the arrival of the Irish in Dawdon parish and would like to find their origins, and the reasons why they chose Co. Durham as a place to 'make a go of it', having (more often than not) fled from what they had, in their home land.

 
One of my Irish families who settled in Lancashire had eldest known child in Preston, 2nd born in Newcastle-on-Tyne (1870) then younger children from 1871 born in Preston. Only on census in Preston so I don't know why one was born in Newcastle. 3 versions of mother's forename on census
returns and only first half of her maiden surname in birth index for the son born in Newcastle.

Maiden Stone
Many thanks for these very useful links.
One strand of my family was among these often desperate Irish people who were forced to relocate in a different land.
Thank you for spelling out the reasons why they came to the UK mainland: not one came for pleasure, did they, and many of them suffered great hardship when they were here.

Given the struggles they encountered, I think I'm finding it extremely sad that their names are badly written in censuses, such that we can't identify this TURET (and others too): she's effectively nameless.
    I feel I almost owe it to her to put things right by searching for, and reporting, the truth, now that we have so many more resources we can use.

What were the 3 versions of your female ancestor's forename?
And what is missing from her maiden surname in the birth index?

D

6
Family History Beginners Board / Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« on: Saturday 26 June 21 14:03 BST (UK)  »
You go to ‘attachments and other options’ under the text box.

My interest is Irish immigrants into Manchester and surrounding towns. As you say, the conditions were horrible.

Heywood
Thanks for teaching me!
Here's the photo. I don't know how these women managed to keep themselves alive, let along bring up large families; they were heroic.

You have an interest in the Irish too? Do you have Irish in your own ancestry?
D

copyright image removed

7
Family History Beginners Board / Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« on: Saturday 26 June 21 13:47 BST (UK)  »
That’s a good idea about the trees.

There is a Bridget Race in 1851 2392/546/39, William Street could sound similar to Rice.
Then there is Owen ‘Mackman’ and family in 1851 at Back Terrace
In 1861 they are in Malcolm’s Yard - next entry is Back Rail Street
Their ages are debatable.

I am sure there is much to research  ;)

Heywood
A friend of mine has 'Race' as her first name (taken from a surname). Interesting.

I found a historic pic of some of the families at Back North Rail[way] Street, just over the tracks from where the Rices lived. Astonishing shot, tells us a lot about the conditions they managed to cope with.
How do we insert photos on Rootchat, uploaded from computer?
D

8
Family History Beginners Board / Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« on: Saturday 26 June 21 13:09 BST (UK)  »
Have you followed up the names of the three other people in the household ('visitors') in 1851 to see if there are any leads there? (i.e. family links)

JenB
That's a great idea and it's wise to seize every chance to widen the picture.

I had chased up those 3 visitors: the surnames seemed a little wildly written by this enumerator (I'd love to know who he was), e.g. his 'Levline' was Devlin, 'Callon' was Callaghan; it led me to look closely at the dock-labouring community in Toxteth, Liverpool, which is perhaps where John Rice started off, when he arrived from Ireland.
But I didn't find anything to advance the search for Turet... have you seen anything helpful?

There are a lot of Irish still in this area (Dawdon). Maybe someone has a family tree which leads back to these people in Back South Railway Street, I'm making enquiries.

D

9
Family History Beginners Board / Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« on: Saturday 26 June 21 13:01 BST (UK)  »
So in the general interest in the Irish in Dawdon/Durham, the death of Julia Rice would be useful.

Do you have access to parish records which you could cross check for Godparents/witnesses etc

Heywood
I think we're all intrigued by Julia Rice!  Since you pointed it out, I've discovered that the name 'Julia' is more common among the Irish community than I'd thought.
     I can only see what we can all see online, unless I spend lots of money on certificates etc., which is beyond my capability.

D x








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