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Derry (Londonderry) / Re: Stewarts of Londonderry
« on: Monday 03 June 19 22:16 BST (UK) »
Hi Maryderry...I'd found that marriage certificate as well! 
are you researching this family too?
are you researching this family too?
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2
Derry (Londonderry) / Re: Stewarts of Londonderry
« on: Thursday 21 February 19 13:04 GMT (UK) »
came up with another 1851 census extraction request and Nancy Courtney came up. Her parents were Thomas Courtney and Mary Ann Stewart! And...on the form, it lists the head of household as John & Jane Stewart!!!! In Tamlaght O'Crilly.
found 2 additional extracts for Nancy Courtney. Not sure if I'm reading it correctly but the last one (attached) doesn't appear to state that the family wasn't found like the other records had. Of course I could be wrong and just overly hopeful...
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Derry (Londonderry) / Re: Stewarts of Londonderry
« on: Thursday 21 February 19 12:52 GMT (UK) »
Thanks so much! Somehow I'd completely missed this post about the graveyard. Will check out the link!
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Derry (Londonderry) / Re: Stewarts of Londonderry
« on: Wednesday 02 January 19 21:58 GMT (UK) »
Hi Elwyn,
Thanks so much. I was very excited by the find of Mary Ann Stewart. I found an addition birth, Jean, in 1859 for her and husband Thomas in Dundee Scotland, indexed as Curtney. Child was not in 1861 census and there is a death recorded in 1860 for the child. I was able to find Thomas and son James (but not Mary Ann or Nancy) in 1871 census.
After much hunting, I did find Nancy's death (remember I had the 1851 census extraction request for her in 1920ish where she was living in Dundee). Found her death in 1928 under Agnes Courtney (single) with the correct parents. Found James' marriage in 1881 with correct parents, neither listed as deceased. So, went on a mad hunt for Mary Ann, but could find absolutely no trace of her. Finally thought to search for Thomas Courtney's death. Found it in 1893. Listed him as widower of Mary Ann Stewart and of Bridget O'Neil. Hmm. So checked when he married Bridget. Marriage found in 1861!! Ok, so Mary Ann is in 1861 census and then he marries Bridget the same year. Can't find a death for Mary Ann under Stewart/Courtney (and variants) in Scotland that would fit. I can find no trace of Nancy/Agnes in 1871 as well. She'd have been around 16/17 years old. they only thought I have is that perhaps Mary Ann and Nancy/Agnes traveled back to Ireland in 1861, where Mary Ann died and Nancy stayed with family before coming back? She re-appears in the 1881 census and has had a daughter age 5 months. Child is born out of marriage (father is listed on the birth record, James McLaughlan); they remain together with the father, and she has several other children. I have her in 1881, 1891, and 1901. Downloaded her 1911 census and she's living with 2 of her children and her partner (though she is listed as a boarder). none of my 1911 Scotland Census' list more than "ireland" for place of birth
. I would also love to know where Nancy was in 1871!
will continue to play around with the databases and see if I can find more
thanks again and Happy New Year!
Thanks so much. I was very excited by the find of Mary Ann Stewart. I found an addition birth, Jean, in 1859 for her and husband Thomas in Dundee Scotland, indexed as Curtney. Child was not in 1861 census and there is a death recorded in 1860 for the child. I was able to find Thomas and son James (but not Mary Ann or Nancy) in 1871 census.
After much hunting, I did find Nancy's death (remember I had the 1851 census extraction request for her in 1920ish where she was living in Dundee). Found her death in 1928 under Agnes Courtney (single) with the correct parents. Found James' marriage in 1881 with correct parents, neither listed as deceased. So, went on a mad hunt for Mary Ann, but could find absolutely no trace of her. Finally thought to search for Thomas Courtney's death. Found it in 1893. Listed him as widower of Mary Ann Stewart and of Bridget O'Neil. Hmm. So checked when he married Bridget. Marriage found in 1861!! Ok, so Mary Ann is in 1861 census and then he marries Bridget the same year. Can't find a death for Mary Ann under Stewart/Courtney (and variants) in Scotland that would fit. I can find no trace of Nancy/Agnes in 1871 as well. She'd have been around 16/17 years old. they only thought I have is that perhaps Mary Ann and Nancy/Agnes traveled back to Ireland in 1861, where Mary Ann died and Nancy stayed with family before coming back? She re-appears in the 1881 census and has had a daughter age 5 months. Child is born out of marriage (father is listed on the birth record, James McLaughlan); they remain together with the father, and she has several other children. I have her in 1881, 1891, and 1901. Downloaded her 1911 census and she's living with 2 of her children and her partner (though she is listed as a boarder). none of my 1911 Scotland Census' list more than "ireland" for place of birth
. I would also love to know where Nancy was in 1871!will continue to play around with the databases and see if I can find more
thanks again and Happy New Year!
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Derry (Londonderry) / Re: Stewarts of Londonderry
« on: Monday 31 December 18 13:52 GMT (UK) »
Just a note that I FOUND Mary Ann Stewart!!! I did a broad search in the 1861 Scotland census on Ancestry looking for anyone named Mary Ann living on the same street as her 2 brothers (William and James). And I got a hit.
Mary Ann Comtnay, with husband Thomas and children Nancy (1854) and James (1857). All born in Ireland. Cross referenced with scotland's people because of the weird spelling. Indexed as Courtnay. Searched for each of them on Ancestry and came up with another 1851 census extraction request and Nancy Courtney came up. Her parents were Thomas Courtney and Mary Ann Stewart! And...on the form, it lists the head of household as John & Jane Stewart!!!! In Tamlaght O'Crilly.
I then searched and found Thomas and Mary's marriage (indexed as Thomas Courtenay) in 1853. In the same parish, Ahoghill in Co. Antrim, as brother William's 1850 marriage. The townland is also the same for both records...can't read it, but it's Craig...? Mary Ann's father is listed as John, a laborer. So I think the family was no longer in Tamlaght O'Crilly in 1851 (which is why they couldn't find them in the 1851 census look-ups?). Perhaps I should be searching Griffith's in that area instead? And, I now have a bride's church. Does that help pin down their denomination? And might you know how I can find out if there are records for this church?
Registration district
Ballymena
Place of marriage
St Colmanells Church of Ireland, Ahoghill
Date of marriage
9th May 1853
Groom details
Groom name(s)
Thomas Courtenay
Age at marriage of groom
21
Bride details
Bride name(s)
Mary Anne Stewart
Age at marriage of bride
18
Mary Ann Comtnay, with husband Thomas and children Nancy (1854) and James (1857). All born in Ireland. Cross referenced with scotland's people because of the weird spelling. Indexed as Courtnay. Searched for each of them on Ancestry and came up with another 1851 census extraction request and Nancy Courtney came up. Her parents were Thomas Courtney and Mary Ann Stewart! And...on the form, it lists the head of household as John & Jane Stewart!!!! In Tamlaght O'Crilly.
I then searched and found Thomas and Mary's marriage (indexed as Thomas Courtenay) in 1853. In the same parish, Ahoghill in Co. Antrim, as brother William's 1850 marriage. The townland is also the same for both records...can't read it, but it's Craig...? Mary Ann's father is listed as John, a laborer. So I think the family was no longer in Tamlaght O'Crilly in 1851 (which is why they couldn't find them in the 1851 census look-ups?). Perhaps I should be searching Griffith's in that area instead? And, I now have a bride's church. Does that help pin down their denomination? And might you know how I can find out if there are records for this church?
Registration district
Ballymena
Place of marriage
St Colmanells Church of Ireland, Ahoghill
Date of marriage
9th May 1853
Groom details
Groom name(s)
Thomas Courtenay
Age at marriage of groom
21
Bride details
Bride name(s)
Mary Anne Stewart
Age at marriage of bride
18
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Derry (Londonderry) / Re: Stewarts of Londonderry
« on: Sunday 30 December 18 22:05 GMT (UK) »
Wow! That’s such interesting information! Thanks so much. I’ve been toying with the idea of having male cousins with the Stewart surname do the Y DNA testing. May follow up and do that
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Derry (Londonderry) / Re: Stewarts of Londonderry
« on: Sunday 30 December 18 14:05 GMT (UK) »
Thank you so much for all of the time and effort you've put into this! It's more than I could have expected or hoped for! Such useful information you've uncovered. Will have to have a go at having someone look up PRONI records at some point.
A few of your points have gotten me thinking.
Thanks for clarifying there weren't 2 separate William Stewarts; that's extremely helpful! I'm still at a loss as to why he was a tenant of someone else if he owned a farm with cottages on it. Why wouldn't he have lived in one of those instead of leasing his house from another person?
I agree it's not a common practice for the women to revert back to her maiden name; however, I've seen it a number of times in Scotland. Sometimes even while still living in the same house as her husband, a wife would have been recorded on census with her maiden name; sometimes when the husband is absent in the census (e.g., just leaves), I've seen them recorded under the maiden name. I've seen it after a death as well. So it was a thought. Though definitely unlikely
I agree that it's likely the record I found isn't the correct Susan Stewart. Will definitely check in Ireland. It does seem with such a short trip it's not likely she gave birth "en route." Not sure of whether the route they would have taken from Ireland to Dundee might have gone through Holywood. There is a 2 year gap between Susan's birth and the next child, Margaret. Could they have originally settled for a while in Holywood before moving on to Dundee? Not critical to my research either way; just more curious than anything.
Thanks also for all the information provided about the travel back and forth between Scotland and Ireland; gives me a better understanding of the historical context which I'm only starting to get into researching. My question was not only about what made them go to Scotland; but what made them go BACK to Scotland. I know with the information I have right now, I have no way of knowing for sure, but my assumption is that they originated in Scotland at some point, particularly with the surname of Stewart. How many generations before John that would have been is uncertain since I've no way of knowing if John was born in Scotland or not, and where in Scotland to even begin looking. The brief look into history I've had would suggest that there was a migration to Ireland from Scotland during the settling of the Ulster plantations.
Again so very much appreciate your help
Jennifer
A few of your points have gotten me thinking.
Regarding the 2 William Stewart entries in Griffiths in Moneystaghan Ellis, there’s only the 1 William Stewart. On plot 19a you have William with a farmhouse and just under 10 acres of land. He has two labourer’s cottages on his farm which he sublets. One to William Farrell (19b) and the other to John Egleson (19c). So William is listed once as a tenant and once as a landlord. Most farms had a few labourers cottages. The labourer could pay rent to the farmer in cash or by an agreed number of days labour on the farm each year, or a mix of the two.
You suggested that Jane Jones might be the widowed Jane Stewart reverting to her maiden name. That’s not something I have ever seen in Ireland. A widow normally retains her married name.
I don’t think the Holywood born Susan Stewart is likely to be your family. Bear in mind too that there was no statutory birth registration in Ireland in 1854. The vast majority of church records are not on-line (especially for Presbyterian churches). Roman Catholic records are available on-line and some Protestant churches have their baptisms on-line but the vast majority do not. If Susan was born in Ireland, in 1854, I’d search the records for Ahoghill (where her parents had lived) but none of those records are on-line. You need to go to PRONI to look them up.
I would think that the “gave birth en rote” answer is unlikely. It took less than a day to get from Ahoghill to Dundee. The likelihood of giving birth in the middle of the journey does not seem very high to me.
Thanks for clarifying there weren't 2 separate William Stewarts; that's extremely helpful! I'm still at a loss as to why he was a tenant of someone else if he owned a farm with cottages on it. Why wouldn't he have lived in one of those instead of leasing his house from another person?
I agree it's not a common practice for the women to revert back to her maiden name; however, I've seen it a number of times in Scotland. Sometimes even while still living in the same house as her husband, a wife would have been recorded on census with her maiden name; sometimes when the husband is absent in the census (e.g., just leaves), I've seen them recorded under the maiden name. I've seen it after a death as well. So it was a thought. Though definitely unlikely
I agree that it's likely the record I found isn't the correct Susan Stewart. Will definitely check in Ireland. It does seem with such a short trip it's not likely she gave birth "en route." Not sure of whether the route they would have taken from Ireland to Dundee might have gone through Holywood. There is a 2 year gap between Susan's birth and the next child, Margaret. Could they have originally settled for a while in Holywood before moving on to Dundee? Not critical to my research either way; just more curious than anything.
Thanks also for all the information provided about the travel back and forth between Scotland and Ireland; gives me a better understanding of the historical context which I'm only starting to get into researching. My question was not only about what made them go to Scotland; but what made them go BACK to Scotland. I know with the information I have right now, I have no way of knowing for sure, but my assumption is that they originated in Scotland at some point, particularly with the surname of Stewart. How many generations before John that would have been is uncertain since I've no way of knowing if John was born in Scotland or not, and where in Scotland to even begin looking. The brief look into history I've had would suggest that there was a migration to Ireland from Scotland during the settling of the Ulster plantations.
Again so very much appreciate your help
Jennifer
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Derry (Londonderry) / Re: Stewarts of Londonderry
« on: Saturday 29 December 18 20:36 GMT (UK) »jen5525,
Thinking again about the Griffiths information, the Jane Jones in 1859 was unlikely to be the mother of Dorothea. She’d be Jane Stewart then, not Jane Jones. The lady in Griffiths could be Thomas Jones’ widow, or some other relation, but she was not John Stewart’s wife. A husband and wife would generally look after their own children. That the children were with their maternal grandfather in 1851 suggests that at least one, if not both were either dead, or unable to look after their family. There’s no obvious way of checking though.
You mentioned William Stewart’s 1855 child, supposedly born in Dundee, that you cannot locate. If you can’t find it in the 1855 birth records, it could be that it was born in Ireland (and the place of birth is wrong in the census) or perhaps born in Scotland in 1854, in which case you need to check church records on Scotlandspeople.
As to the above 2 points. That makes sense about Jane Jones to some extent; however, if she were Thomas' widow, wouldn't she have also been listed on the 1851 with the other family members? Same goes for her parents; it does seem curious that Dorothea listed all of her siblings and included her maternal grandfather on the 1851 but did not include her parent's names in that list. I do agree it's likely that both have passed at that point, and that the Jane Jones in the 1859 is another relative. Or, Jane Stewart reverted to her maiden name on John's death? Or had left the children behind and moved with John elsewhere around that time? I often see grandchildren with their grandparents in a census and then later they are back with their parents (e.g., Dorothea Walker & her mom Elizabeth). I suppose we'll never know
I've done a search for Susan Stewart (also under Stuart) from 1851 to 1861 in all possible records (including RC). There were only 2 possibilities. In 1861 (way too late) there is a Margaret Susan but the next child is Margaret Jane, so that's not her. In 1854, there is a Susan Hastings Stewart; parents are William Stewart and Jane McConnel (possibly her, McConnel is not so far from McKelvie) but the birth was in Holywood which is no where near Dundee but I suppose could have been on the way from Ireland to Dundee? I don't have a lot of confidence that that is her.
Thanks for all of the additional information; very helpful for putting this into historical context. Will check into all of your links
Jen
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Derry (Londonderry) / Re: Stewarts of Londonderry
« on: Saturday 29 December 18 20:04 GMT (UK) »
thank you so very much for all of this information. I so appreciate all of your help! What you've provided definitely fits with the family as I know it.
I can say with a high degree of confidence that the family was not RC as no other family member going forward has been RC. James Stewart and Margaret White were married in Episcopal Church of Scotland, as was James' first son John. The next son to marry was William who married in the Free Church of Scotland. Thereafter, most seem to marry in the Established Church of Scotland. So, would be quite a shock to find that this line was RC in Ireland. Though looking back at the 1831 census, the Jones and Stewart families were one of very few Presbyterians. Hmmm. Wonder what that was like? Could that have explained the move to Scotland? (though I know the famine in the 1840s/early 1850s probably played a role as well).
As far as the family's occupation, weaver definitely fits. James and William (sons of John & Jane) were both weavers after the move to Scotland. On James' marriage in 1855, he lists his father John's occupation as Weaver. However, in later records the occupation listed changes. On William's death record in 1863, it lists Laborer. In James' death in 1907, it lists Farmer. In Dorothea's death in 1933, it lists Gardener.
As for pinning down a date of death for John and Jane. I think your hunch about the Griffiths might be correct. My assumption is that John died earlier than 1859 and that Jane died in the range when she was removed from the role (unless she moved to Scotland?). Can't find a death for her there that fits though. Scotland records usually list if the parents are deceased on the records, but I've found that to be inaccurate; many times they are not listed as deceased when they actually are; and in a few cases I've found them still living even though an early record indicates they are deceased. So...this should be taken with a grain of salt, but for James' marriage in 1855 and William's death in 1863, neither parent is listed as deceased.
Now another question I have pertains to the William listed on the 1831 census and 1859 Griffiths records. First, in the 1859 Griffiths, 2 Williams are listed. The first is as renting a cottage from the same landlord as Jane Jones. The second is listed as the landlord for 2 renters. Are these 2 different William's do you think? (would seem strange if you were a land owner to then lease a cottage from someone else). And wondering how this/these Williams relate to John? I'm sure there's no way to know for sure, but could be John's father or brother. I've ruled out John's son William as he was already in Scotland.
A last question (more a musing really). I'm curious how the Stewarts wound up in Ireland. My assumption is that they must have originated in Scotland at some point; would love to know when they might have gone to Ireland. I can say with fair confidence that John Stewart and Jane Jones did not marry in Scotland.
Also a bit curious as to how this might fit in to the puzzle...On the upper left corner of the request for the extracted 1851 census for Dorothea, it notes "Scotch" and a number. I assume because the family originated in Scotland. but not sure what meaning to ascribe to it, if any.
Will look into ordering some of the records that you think might be accessible. Thanks so very much for the leads!
I can say with a high degree of confidence that the family was not RC as no other family member going forward has been RC. James Stewart and Margaret White were married in Episcopal Church of Scotland, as was James' first son John. The next son to marry was William who married in the Free Church of Scotland. Thereafter, most seem to marry in the Established Church of Scotland. So, would be quite a shock to find that this line was RC in Ireland. Though looking back at the 1831 census, the Jones and Stewart families were one of very few Presbyterians. Hmmm. Wonder what that was like? Could that have explained the move to Scotland? (though I know the famine in the 1840s/early 1850s probably played a role as well).
As far as the family's occupation, weaver definitely fits. James and William (sons of John & Jane) were both weavers after the move to Scotland. On James' marriage in 1855, he lists his father John's occupation as Weaver. However, in later records the occupation listed changes. On William's death record in 1863, it lists Laborer. In James' death in 1907, it lists Farmer. In Dorothea's death in 1933, it lists Gardener.
As for pinning down a date of death for John and Jane. I think your hunch about the Griffiths might be correct. My assumption is that John died earlier than 1859 and that Jane died in the range when she was removed from the role (unless she moved to Scotland?). Can't find a death for her there that fits though. Scotland records usually list if the parents are deceased on the records, but I've found that to be inaccurate; many times they are not listed as deceased when they actually are; and in a few cases I've found them still living even though an early record indicates they are deceased. So...this should be taken with a grain of salt, but for James' marriage in 1855 and William's death in 1863, neither parent is listed as deceased.
Now another question I have pertains to the William listed on the 1831 census and 1859 Griffiths records. First, in the 1859 Griffiths, 2 Williams are listed. The first is as renting a cottage from the same landlord as Jane Jones. The second is listed as the landlord for 2 renters. Are these 2 different William's do you think? (would seem strange if you were a land owner to then lease a cottage from someone else). And wondering how this/these Williams relate to John? I'm sure there's no way to know for sure, but could be John's father or brother. I've ruled out John's son William as he was already in Scotland.
A last question (more a musing really). I'm curious how the Stewarts wound up in Ireland. My assumption is that they must have originated in Scotland at some point; would love to know when they might have gone to Ireland. I can say with fair confidence that John Stewart and Jane Jones did not marry in Scotland.
Also a bit curious as to how this might fit in to the puzzle...On the upper left corner of the request for the extracted 1851 census for Dorothea, it notes "Scotch" and a number. I assume because the family originated in Scotland. but not sure what meaning to ascribe to it, if any.
Will look into ordering some of the records that you think might be accessible. Thanks so very much for the leads!