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Messages - chandmer

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I went through the 1841 census in Trefonen looking for a reference to Moelydd farm, which was the listed abode in the 1840 birth certificate for Leah Jones. It's referred to as "Moyleth Farm" on page 2 of District 12 in the census. (, where it appears the farmer's family name is Tudor. There is a male servant Thomas Jones and female servant Ann (?) Jones present in the household, both aged 20. John and Lydia would have been about 26 in 1841. No sign of any Williamses at Moelydd.

Progress thus far:
Location of birth record and 1841 census record for John, Lydia, and Leah.
Location of birth records, 1841 and 1851 for candidate family of Lydia in Oswestry, though inconclusive connection.

As usual, many many questions!

Two Mary Williams' baptisms were recorded in Oswestry in 1819. One of them died in 1840. Neither seem to be recorded locally in the 1841 census.

There was a Mary, daughter of William and Mary also from Leg Street, baptized in 1818. William Williams was a Naylor or Taylor. Was this a time and place where baptismal names varied from given names?

Lydia William's last child, Mary Ellen Hangmer Jones was born in 1856 and had her name changed to Lydia in infancy, so there's a precedent for Mary->Lydia evolution.

None of the Lydias born in Oswestry between 1812 and 1822 seem to be connected.

Here is Lydia and John Jones' marriage certificate, for consistency:

I'll look into Mary Williams and see what comes out. I haven't been able to find marriage certificates for John and Ellen Williams of Oswestry.

I'm not convinced either, especially given all their other children were consistently documented.

Lydia's death certificate lists her parents, birthplace, and place of marriage, which is consistent with the 1845 marriage certificate. (better view of right hand edge)

We also have Lydia and John's first known child Leah in Trefonen in 1840, and then the three of them in Liverpool in 1841.

I didn't forget - you quoted something I posted before you emailed me the details. Thank you!

Good find on a possible death - would there be a death certificate somewhere with more biographical information?

I tried to follow up and this is as close as I got: - none of the records on ancestry or familysearch seem to contain age at death - where is the best place to find this information? EDIT: Found it on findmypast. Still not sure how to find more detailed biographical info.

On Lydia's death certificate, it says she's 43 years old in 1858, which would place her birth in 1815. It also states that she was married at age 24, which would place the marriage at 1839, before Leah's (otherwise illegitimate) birth. We know that her marriage actually occurred in 1845, so either she was married at age 29, or she was born in about 1821 (and had Leah at age 19) and died at age 37, or somewhere in between these values.

Any chance wrjones might chime in?

I have been able to track down the John and Ellen Williams family in Oswestry. They appear in the 1841 census (Salop Road) and 1851 census (Weston Lane). John seems to become a Malster in about 1830. They have a lot of children between 1818 and 1833, including Owen, Mary, Edward, John, Margaret, Emma&Elizabeth (twins), and probably another Mary. They were both born in Northern Wales, and I'm currently trying to track down their BMD details.

More details:

I think the Liverpool entry for the 1841 census is convincing. Thank you for finding this!!

John Jones' death certificate has not been located. I made a thorough search of court, prison, and newspaper records in Victoria between 1858 (the year of Lydia's death) and 1865 (they year a lot of stuff happened), and after John Jones was sentenced to two weeks hard labor for stealing oats, I lose the trail. Newspaper coverage:

Plenty of John Jones to go around, but I've checked every death certificate in the right age window and none of them are the right one. It would be really nice to find his death certificate, though! I sometimes wonder how they find out info for the death certificate, though, if no-one else around knew the details.

For context, in 1865, John's eldest Leah was married to a local farmer, his next son (my great great grandfather) Charles Thomas Jones had disappeared at age 14, possibly to sea, his next youngest, John Ezra had been shipped off to industrial school until 1873, when he disappears, and his youngest daughter Mary Ellen/Lydia, was already dead. All of this is reasonably well documented and I can share if people are interested, but it's also pretty sad - fair warning.

Leah's christening record is barely readable - though I'm pleased to have found "FindMyPast"! Can anyone help me identify the place names listed and the comment at the end of the line?

WOW! Thank you so much for your help, already so many good questions.

First - "muddled online family tree" that's mostly my doing. The version on ancestry is cribbed (by them) from the one I've been doing on family search, which almost always contains a link or a reference to primary documentation.

Second - I am aware of the town of Hanmer - I've even visited it long ago. I've reviewed the various Hanmer family trees both there and in Myddle from the relevant time period, but there's no obvious contenders, like for instance a "Leah Hanmer" born about 1790 - but I could look again.

Lydia Jones' children are listed in her death certificate, which can be viewed here: (and here)

There is a John and Ellen Williams family in Oswestry who had two children (Owen and Mary) in about 1815 (eg There are also numerous Williamses in Wolverhampton who have roughly the right names and dates, but nothing compelling.

John Jones (senior) and John Williams are both listed as labourers in the 1845 marriage certificate. John Jones was given as a miller in his marriage certificate, but in Australia worked as a sweep, a miner, and possibly a sailor. His son worked as a thresher for a time before becoming a farmer.

Earliest written record of Handmer-like name is in 1856 ( John Jones' name is given here as John Amer Jones, and his daughter (his last child before Lydia's death) as Mary Ellen Hangmer Jones. Confusingly, Mary Ellen was renamed Lydia after her mother died and lived with Leah for a few years before accidentally drowning in about 1863. The informant in Mary Ellen/Lydia's birth record is Leah, who was about 16 at the time and barely literate - so spellings vary throughout her family's life. By 1875 (when the next generation survivors resurfaced as adults) they were no longer Jones.

I think that answers most of the questions thus far, I'll check back though!

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