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Messages - russell12

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1
I'd probably date the photo to be mid 1860s; judging by the middle woman's clothing; a front darted bodice with bishop sleeves, peregrine shawl and lace 'house cap'. Both boys look to be in their 20s.

Could be  postmortem - though I'm no expert (as we've already established  ;)) . The boy on the left seems to be supporting her head, and from what I can make out the pupils of her eyes seem to be sort of rolled/glazed over (?) - which although this is not the best quality scan, you can still make out the pupils in the eyes of the boys (maybe she had light blue/grey eyes?).

The fingers do look very stiff and unnaturally posed - though I don't how they would have supported the book (bible maybe).






2
I would say early 1850s;

She looks to be wearing a visite mantle with modified pagoda sleeves (trimmed with passementerie) and modest engageantes. The chemisette collar (sometimes this scarf+collar combination is referred to as a fichu) she is wearing was also very popular from 1840-1860.

So most likely to be Judith Mary Meehan Bourke :)


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Hope you don't mind that I colourised this photo  :)

Also - sorry I'm a bit late in posting this!




4
Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs / Re: Edwardian Britain in Colour
« on: Saturday 16 February 19 15:12 GMT (UK)  »
This looks fascinating!

I actually recognise the screenshot to be from a 'Pendlebury Colliery' recording from 1901

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfN60ZlZhpY

^ Here is the video of anyone is interested! If you pause at around 2:55 you'll see the little girl with the shawl and two boys  :)


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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=792932.msg6496221#msg6496221
Russell12 I think you are being too adamant even in your second followup about these things.  Post mortem photos existed in all sorts of 'poses'  Posing stands were used while the subjects were alive and dead.

Oh no - I think you've misinterpreted the tone of my comment! I'm perfectly up to admitting I'm wrong on this :P

With that being said; this has definitely made me reconsider the possibility of my mum being correct on a family photo being postmortem - so thank you for correcting me on my initial preconception of them  :)

xpress4; are there no siblings who were born around 1895-1900? Maybe the little girl could be a visiting relative such as a niece or cousin?

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Quote
It's very easy to spot a Victorian Post mortem picture since they are nearly always taken with the deceased person actually in the casket!

Have a good look around this Photo board and I think you will see several examples of post mortem (memento mori) photos of children NOT in caskets.    ;)  (not saying this is one such, just making a point)

I've not yet recognised any post-mortem photos of children on this forum (thank god!)

I think I generalised my statement a bit too much for effect here  ;) - I was trying to get across that the deceased person is usually pictured lying down; usually disguised so they look asleep (either held or supported by the parent or propped up by pillows) - but the neck and head are never fully 'up' without obvious support.

https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/143689-posing-stand-often-attributed-to-post-mo

I've been having a long standing debate with my mum over a family photo in which the individual is leaning on a table with 'glazed over' eyes - she thinks the woman is dead. I think it was simply a bad shot (she is sat up right with her eyes wide open). (Sorry for going a bit off topic here)

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Oh my goodness! Kudos to whoever first spotted this  :o



You can see how the cuff is laid flat against her dress, and her hand is purposefully obscuring the fact that there is no hand/ or arm for matter in that sleeve.

His shoulder is very sloped - which would suggest the absence of the whole arm.

As for him being 'dead' in the photo - definitely not.

The whole postmortem Victorian photos fad has really been blown out of proportion by the media; truth is that the body was far too heavy to be 'sat' up (or stood up) by just a metal stand, and rigor mortis would have made manipulating and posing the body nigh impossible, not only that but the other two would be wearing mourning clothing.

It's very easy to spot a Victorian Post mortem picture since they are nearly always taken with the deceased person actually in the casket!

8
The gentleman maybe is not that comfortable in a suite and has struggled to fasten a decent knot in his tie. 

You can actually see what seems to be a bandage/plaster wrapped around his middle finger (and I think on the ring finger aswell) ??? Maybe that explains the poor tie?



^ Not relevant at all to OP's questions, but I'm a stickler for details  :P Perhaps it could give us a clue to his profession? (I'm really reaching here though)

9
Unlikely to be the same woman since the first picture dates to the mid 1860s (more specifically from 1863-1867);

Circled in red is a design feature called a 'mancheron' - a high sleeve cap. A style which started in the mid 1840s and gradually fazed out by the mid 1860s.

On the right you can see a very similar extant bodice (a MET museum deaccession) which has been dated to 1865. The trimming on the cuff, mid torso waistband, front button closure, mancheron sleeve cap and crescent sleeve shape are all very similar.

The young boy is also wearing 'mule slippers' - which were an extremely popular part of casual menswear in the early 1860s. The shoes in comparison are an extant example from the early 1860s (the owner took the liberty of modelling them for us). You can see the 'v' shaped vamp and square toe cap are very similar, and I suspect that the pair the boy is wearing would have been decorated with some kind crewel-embroidery (as was fashionable at the time).

Last but not least the hairstyle;

The early 1860s favoured a severe middle parting, with straight well ironed hair which was pulled tightly across the scalp - which was then 'managed' into either a low (emphasis on that) simple bun or (for special occasions) a plait. The fashion plate in comparison is an 1862 hair tutorial from Harpers Bazaar. The later 1860s style began to add more volume to the back of the hair and overall became less 'severe' in appearance.

I would probably predict the woman in the photo to be around 20 years old - putting her birth date c. 1840s. She would have been 50/60 in the early Edwardian period/late 1890s - whether or not the woman in the second picture looks mid 50s is up to you... I'd say not, but saying that, there is an undeniable resemblance (so I could be wrong).

The woman in the second pic is wearing a calico dress. These are often thought of as 'worker' dresses and don't necessarily show off the latest Parisian fashions  :P The print is very 1890s. I'm not a print expert (no surprises there), so I can't give you an exact date on the fabric. What I can tell you is that the picture definitely wouldn't be the early 1890s - it would be the mid or late 1890s; and that's all down to the hairstyle.

sleeves, print, fit of the dress and neckline - all of it is very practical in design. I believe that the woman in the photos dress may also have a front closure which has been cleverly hidden by a well placed ribbon!

Lastly - the hairstyle (and the reason why I say late 1890s - if not the early Edwardian period - were talking about a very narrow period between 1900-1903 here).


^ Just to prove my point I made a very scruffy hair timeline from photos with the precise dates.

As you can see the dress and hairstyle point to the late 1890s - and I could even stretch the date to the early Edwardian period; going by how voluminous her hairstyle, it really resembles a Gibson do (the purpose of the Gibson hair was to not only 'look' good but distribute the weight of the growing Edwardian hat - and trust me - I own a massive antique 1912 picture hat and without such a bouffant the brim of the hat really 'digs' into the forehead... not comfortable).

Hope this helps.

EDIT: In fact - on second thoughts, I think the resemblance is too similar for it not to be the same person! I believe it is the same woman  :)

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