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Messages - Newt

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1
London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / Re: Teacher Training 1870 or social history?
« on: Sunday 30 July 06 23:32 BST (UK)  »
Good points Jennifer,

Too young? although it was only a CE village primary school (@60 on roll).

Not sure about connections in Devon (yet to find out where the family originally came from), although interestingly his brother moved to Torquay later to open  his shop (maybe on his brother's recommendation?)

I will make enquiries to Winchester.

What is a pupil teacher? (you make it sound like he would be 'shadowing' a real teacher - and a family friend at that?)

And finally, no, he did not marry into money.  He got married after he became headteacher.

Thanks,

Neal

2
London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / Teacher Training 1870 or social history?
« on: Sunday 30 July 06 21:45 BST (UK)  »
Can anyone offer their opinions or knowledge on this scenario...

I have ancestors who were living in London and in 1871 census the Father was working as a stableman (also a groom earlier in life) in the Royal Mews and the rest of his family lived elsewhere.

Of his family one in particular took an unusual route through life

He is Frederick George Turner aged 15 and a pupil teacher?

His father died in 1873 and yet in 1875-6 Frederick attended Winchester and became a headteacher in Devon in 1877.

Of his 4 siblings one became a journey man starting as a potman and ending as a house painter.
Another became a drapers apprentice becoming a shop-owner
another was a solicitors clerk and the final one i think became a maid.

My question(s)...

1) What did a 15 year old do as a pupil teacher?
2) Why did he wait 4 years until attending college?
3) Who paid for it? (quite big family, no father's income).
4) Why him?  why was his younger brother left to his own devices in London.
5) And finally, overall, what would be the aspirations of parents being a groom and domestic servant for their children in Victorian London.

Your thoughts and links would be appreciated.

Neal  :D

3
London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / Re: 1841 census siblings to find
« on: Wednesday 28 June 06 22:30 BST (UK)  »
Hi Bryant and all,

Your results were interesting but now I have yet more info (from parish records). Details are:

Richard Turner (Head) - Groom
Sarah Turner (Wife)
Richard Turner (Son) b1829 Fulham
Jane Turner (Daug) b1833 Fulham
Hannah Turner (Daug) b1836 Fulham

There may be other family members yet to be discovered.

Can anyone find any of these in 1841 or 1851 census?...

p.s. There was also another family in Fulham who may be linked:
Robert Turner (Head) - Groom
Sarah Turner (Wife)
William Turner (Son) 1831 Fulham
Mary Ann Turner (Daug) 1834 Fulham
Finding these may help lead me to them?

Regards and thanks,

Neal

4
Surrey Completed Look up Requests / Re: Opinion on 1851 census transcription please
« on: Sunday 11 June 06 22:35 BST (UK)  »
Thanks Valda,

Since I originally posted that I know that Richards father is also called Richard.

So, on the 1851 census return we have Richard Turner (Junior) as 21 and Thomas Turner in his forties.  I wonder why they were in service at the same house?  (Thomas has a double entry because he is also shown up the road with his wife and children).

Would anyone advise against presuming Thomas is his uncle who got him work at that address.  And if so, would Thomas's birthplace in West Grinstead lead me to Richards father's birth/baptism?  I know it's a long shot but  I want to progress.

Surely they are not unconnected people who happened to be working together in a village house!

If I were to check the baptism's for Thomas Turner at  West Grinstead @1807 where would I find the records?

Thanks all,
Neal

5
London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / Re: 1841 census siblings to find
« on: Saturday 10 June 06 19:51 BST (UK)  »
Hi Bryant,

This is my difficulty, as yet I do not know his mother (although i have somone in London looking for his baptism in 1830).  Also, because he and his father were coachmen (on the road?) or a groom (servant at another premises) I have yet to locate any of the 2 Richards (Senior,Junior) at the same address as their family at any census.

So, what do I have?...(of key note)

Richard (Junior) marriage 1852 to Sarah Ann Huggett Aug 1852 at parish church Kennington.  They were living in St Marks Road (which is the parish church).  Interestingly a witness was Sarah Ann Turner who I am presuming to be his sister.  Her father Stephen Hiuggett, farmer.

His sister was also informant for his death in 1873, she being married and named as S.A.Toll.  he died at 19 Windmill St, Brixton and she was living at 7 Brandon Rd Brixton Hill.

In the 1871 census Richard Turner was a groom at The Royal Mews Buckingham Palace whilst his family were at St Mary, Lambeth, Stockwell.  All children there.  The 1861 census is missing for where they lived and none were born for 1851 census.

Gotta take a breath now.  I think I may be confusing everyone!

All I can presume and look for is 1841 census...
Richard Turner (senior) @40 years as a guess and probably working as a coachman - so may be at different address
Mother - not known.
Sarah Ann @12 years born Picaddily
Richard Turner (junior) @11 years
There may be a John Turner aged 1 (who appeared with Sarah Ann (Toll) on 1871 census as lodger - maybe brother?).

To further the clues/intrigue, Richard Turner (junior) appeared in 1851 census in Morden Lane at 21 years but with another elder Turner (Thomas aged 45) who was working as servant coachman (maybe uncle?).  He was born West Grinstead and Richard in Fulham.

Interestingly, Thomas was a double entry and appears twice -in the 1851 census just up the road with his family.  Ans Richards future wife was 10 or so doors down in Morden lane as a servant.

Confused?

Anyway, back to the point.  I want to find either of the Richard Turners or Sarah Ann Turner (sister) and their mother in 1841 census.

If you are reading this sentence, thanks for listening!

regards, Neal


6
London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / Coachmen - any info?
« on: Saturday 03 June 06 21:42 BST (UK)  »
Hi all,

I have a couple of direct ancestors who were coachmen in or around London 1830 to 1870ish.  Documents (Census and BMD) have them moving between north and south of the river (Piccadilly, Fulham, Lambeth, Morden).

Has anyone got sound knowledge of the type of lifestyle they were likely to lead?

Would they be 'intercity' operators or would they be 'cabmen' in London (is there a seperate classification such as cabman?).

Are there any documents or records that list the operators and/or coachmen in service?

Looking forward to your thoughts and tips.

Regards, Neal  :D

7
London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / Re: 1841 census siblings to find
« on: Thursday 01 June 06 22:35 BST (UK)  »
Thanks Meliora,

I think you may be right...it is wide of the mark, but thanks for looking.

I have some updated info from Richard's marriage certificate of 1872.

His father was also Richard, so the census for 1841 should show a Richard as head and a Richard as 12 year old.  However, Richard senior was a coachman so may not have been in the house on the night of the census!

So I am looking for...
Richard (head)
Sarah Ann (12)
Richard (11) in Middlesex or Surrey.

Methinks this is a tough one  ???

Regards, Neal

8
London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / 1841 census siblings to find
« on: Saturday 27 May 06 19:31 BST (UK)  »
Can I ask some one to attempt this one please (I know you all have different search methods and software).  I am looking for a family in the 1841 census.  i have 2 or 3 people who should be in the same household but still can't find them.  details are:

Sarah Ann Turner b.1829 (Picaddilly)
Richard Turner b.1830 (Fulham)
John Turner b.1840 (Fulham)

Richard and John both born in Fulham so maybe same area by census time in 1841.

I will be impressed  if anyone can find this.

Regards, Neal

9
Devon / Re: Woodbury Salterton - School
« on: Friday 19 May 06 23:17 BST (UK)  »
Thanks Robin,

It is of great interest.  I do not have much in the way of family stories.  My G Grandad and Frederick Turner (brothers) split up in London when their father died quite young and they obviousley lost touch because my Dad's Dad never ever mentioned an uncle in Devon.  But to suddenly see things in print is really impressive.  :o

Cheers, Neal

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