Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Messages - TheWhuttle

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 ... 55
Antrim / Re: Giluskirk Presbyterian Church
« on: Monday 12 July 21 22:18 BST (UK)  »
The PRICE name ultimately derives from the Welsh descendant term "ap REES".
Such meaning "out of REES".

[c.f. Scots Gaelic "mac" DONALD" or "nic" DONALD".
 Such  meaning "son" or "daughter" of DONALD.]

Worth keeping in mind for your further (backward) research?
[Advise keeping an eye out for RICE ...]

Antrim / Re: Carnmoney Cemeteries
« on: Monday 21 June 21 21:26 BST (UK)  »
(continued from immediate previous post)



To get to SECTION "J" simply follow the short path down through SECTION "A" to the cross-roads.

Go straight across.
 [SECTION "C" lies to the right (West);
  SECTION "D" lies to the left (East).]

When you get to the T-junction turn right (West).
  [SECTION "G" lies to your left (South).]

Turn left (South) at the first path (before you get to the corner).
  [SECTION "B" lies to your right (West); SECTION "G" lies to your left (East).]

When you get to the T-junction turn right (West).
After a few yards SECTION "J" lies on the left (South).


SECTION "J" is split simply in to 9-off vertical columns:

Column "A" (graves A1-A25; First visible memorial A1 BOYCE)
Column "B" (graves B1-B28; First visible memorial B4 WATTERS)
Column "C" (graves C1-C25; First visible memorial C1 HEYBURN)
Column "D" (graves D1-D25; First visible memorial D2 GAULT)
Column "E" (graves E1-E30; First visible memorial E1 SPIERS)
Column "F" (graves F1-F29; First visible memorial F1 CARSON)
Column "G" (graves G1-G30; First visible memorial G2 STEVENS)
Column "H" (graves H1-H30; First visible memorial H1 PATTERSON)
Column "J" (graves J1-J28; First visible memorial J1 GETTY)


Your interest will be in row "B".
[The 2nd one in from the (far) Western side.]

The grave reference "J/B12" means SECTION "J" - Column "B" - Grave "12".

Now some "Maths":  12 (yours) / 28 (last) ~ 14/28 = 1/2.
So the grave is located ~1/2 way down (South) from the path at its top;
[N.B This is a guesstimate.
 Some graves are "longer" than others, especially large family graves.]


1) continue walking West;

2) turn left (South) on the next path.
       [SECTION "H" is on your right (West); SECTION "J" is on your left (East).]

3) walk ~1/2 way down this path.
       [Running down the Western side of SECTION "J".]

4) for immediate geographical guidance look out for graves in the first (closest) column to your East:
       J/A15 (ADAIR), J/A17 (LOWRY)
       [N.B. Couldn't find a reference to a J/A12.]

5) You need to be looking just beyond for a black marble stone & surround
        for J/B12 (CHRISTY) in the 2nd column (viz. "B").
     [J/B11 (BOYCE) lies adjacent North of it; J/B13 (McAVOY) immediately to the South.]

[N.B. There is a path running back along the full width of the bottom of graveyard.
 SECTIONs "J", "K" & "L" to lie to the left (North); SECTION "M" to the right (South).
 You can walk East along it, then turn left (North) at the far corner and walk straight to the top.

 If there has been heavy rain watch out for the mats of moss.
 They can "give way" en masse and you might fall down and hurt your pride!]
The surnames present on the memorials are listed alphabetically in the book.
[For SECTION "J" they cover pps. 106-116.
 There is one fallen/broken stone.]


Hope that this gets you there.

I haven't included any of the inscription details.
[I've presumed that you'd prefer to "discover" them yourselves on another physical visit.]

All the best onward,

Captain Jock

Antrim / Re: Carnmoney Cemeteries
« on: Monday 21 June 21 21:18 BST (UK)  »
Hi emcquiston,

We've got a copy of  the book here:

ISBN 978-0-9561374-0-1

Recorded & Published by Members of the Newtownabbey Branch
of the North of Ireland Family History Society.
pps. 144 total.

[Seen those folks in action many times, dedicated industrious skilled people.
 The book is a power of work, a MUST HAVE for those interested in genealogical connections to the area.
 Lots of history, photos, memorial listings for WWI & WWII participants, maps, indexes of surnames & placenames, etc.
 'Tis a wonder to behold!]

The "hidden" graveyard is indeed located immediately (South) across Church Road from the church.
[So called 'cos it was totally overgrown for years, some parts being impenetrable.
 Graves are meant to be maintained by surviving family, but these drift away and perish themselves.
 A number of years ago the Council stepped in and blitzed the whole place with "Agent Orange".
 I thought that I had entered a war zone!]


pps 17-25 contain an alphabetical list of all surnames that could be transcribed ​from the memorial stones.
[N.B. Some plots had no memorials, either originally or they were "lost" to posterity.
      Others were unreadable because of weathering or damage.
      Others had fallen over (dangerous to explore, even for experienced speliologists).]

p.21  Lists two PRITCHARD grave references -  E/A38 (p.85)  &  J/B12  (p.114).

p.26 Shows the layout map for the SECTIONs within the "Hidden" (aka No.1) graveyard.

Stand at the entrance (on the South side of Church Road).
Looking South (straight down), then scan from right (West) to left (East).

The SECTIONs ("ground blocks") are arranged roughly in horizontal rows, labelled:

"A" near the entrance at the top;
"B", "C", "D", "E" & "F" (which latter runs right down to the bottom);
"G" (situate East of "B", and South  of "C", "D" & "E";
"H", "J", "K", "L";
"M" (right at the bottom.).

[There is no "I".
 Perhaps, Theologically, it was deemed inappropriate to use Jesus' initial in a graveyard context?
    ("I" in Latin, as in the derogatory "INRI".)
 More prosaically, Typographically, to avoid a character that could be confused with the numeric digit "1".
   So, e.g. a reference of J/I12 might cause folks to waste time looking for grave 112 in instead of 12.]


To get to SECTION "E" simply follow the short path down through SECTION "A" to the cross-roads.
Turn left (East) past the top of SECTION "D", which lies on the right (South).
You will pass (what looks like) a wall
  (deduced from the solid black line running N-S on the map).
SECTION "E" now lies on your right (South), stretching along to the corner of the path.


SECTION "E" is split simply in to 5-off vertical columns
  [Each designated by a non-numeric alphabetic character]:

Column "A" (graves A1-A58; First visible memorial A1 McILVEEN)
Column "B" (graves B1-B54; First visible memorial B1 REILLY)
Column "C" (graves C1-C58; First visible memorial C1 TINSLEY)
Column "D" (graves D1-D50; First visible memorial D3 HARKNESS)
Column "E" (graves E1-E49; First visible memorial E1 HUNT)

Your interest will be in Column "A".
 [The 1st (most-Western) one that you will encounter, immediately next to the "wall".]
The grave reference "E/A38" means SECTION "E" - Column "A" - Grave "38".

Now some "Maths":  38 (yours) / 58 (last) ~ 40/60 = 2/3.
So the grave is located ~2/3 down (South) from the top;
[N.B This is a guesstimate.
 Some graves are "longer" than others, especially large family graves.]

You could either:

1) walk down along the "wall" (if that is indeed what it is)  [Not advised!];

2) tiptoe down along the left (East) side of the "wall" through/past the other 37 graves;

3) walk further East along the path to the corner,
     turn right (South) and walk 2/3 down the path
       (such running down the Eastern side of SECTION "E"),
     turn right (West) and then tiptoe through fewer (viz. 4) graves (Columns E,D,C,B).

4) for geographical guidance, if standing on the Eastern path of SECTION "E",
     look Westward in the immediate Column "E" (and then over to Column "A") for
     E/E23 (STEELE, Stone no Surround),
     E/E26 (MAGILL, Tall black stone.),
     E/E38 (WILSON, Stone and Surround 1895).

5) in this case you need to be looking for a tall stone with metal railings
      E/A38 (PRITCHARD) in this furthest (Western-most) column, next the "wall".
     [E/A42 (MILLAR, metal plaque with railings) lies closeby North of it.]

[N.B. There appears to be no (offical) path along the bottom of SECTION "E".]

The surnames present on the memorials are listed alphabetically in the book.
[For SECTION "E" they cover pps. 77-88
 There are 3 fallen stones.]

(to be continued next)


Sorry to hear of your sad loss, such must have been devastating.
[We've lost a great aunt, then our Dad, then an aunt, and now Dad's cousin in Canada.
 Quite a year.  Huge amounts of potential verbal knowledge lost forever.
 You just had to sit them down together, turn on the recorder, and wait for the sparks!]

Genealogical mess?!!!
You are one of the most prolific/clear contributors to this conference.
Power to your elbow there in your transcription efforts Sir!
[Quote: Gustav MAHLER "Men will have to work a long time at cracking the nuts that I’m shaking down from the tree for them."]

Scribbles from hectic/strenuous/inspired scenarios are always much to be appreciated.
[c.f. H. Rider HAGGARD (correspondent during the Zulu Wars, involving many Ulster men).
   Later, super-inspired while writing his famous novel "She":
       "It came faster than my poor aching hand could set it down."
 Those of us who have struggled (physically/optically) with the Tenison GROVES archives in Belfast,
 and the "tombstones" (Will/Deed extracts in Dublin) know the worth of an occasional twiddle of the pen ...]

Much can be learned from scribble diaries.

When the great Mathematical Geometer Bernard RIEMANN (founder of the generic construction that underlies the formulation of General Relativity by Albert EINSTEIN) died, his colleagues scarpered round to his house a.s.a.p. just managing to stop his house-keeper from throwing all his "scrap" papers on the fire in her attempt to make the place tidy for visits by mourners.

Much (though not all) of his unpublished work was saved, some with tentative embryonic new ideas, others with emphatically proved rejections of useless avenues to follow, etc.
Also there were essential lessons to be learnt by his approach to problems/proofs.

The ethos of the time was that formally unpublished material was NOT to be made public.
Such idea was reputation driven, perhaps hinting that the author was somehow less than super-human.

This idea is likely to derive from the motto of his great mentor
(the last Poly-Math) Carl Friedrich GAUSS's:
  "Pauca sed Matura"   [Trans. "Few but Ripe"]

I encountered a choir outside our small ancient church one day recently.
Engaging with them, I mentioned that I had also been a chorister once.
Their immediate response:
  "What do you mean once?  Once a chorister, always a chorister!"

[I asked them what they had been singing - oratorios by BRUCKNER.
 So, I gave them my rendition of the start of his 7th Symphony.
 In my view, the most beautiful/inspiring opening to any work of music.]

Think that same applies to family history researchers.
  "Once a genealogist, always a genealogist!"

Keep your pecker up, and let us know what help you need anytime.

Capt. Jock

P.S. Very interested in the 1896 Francis TURNLY marriage, but perhaps best broached with you separately, through some separate scribbles.


You could consider donating your (obviously copious) research scribble diaries in to the safe custody of PRONI/UHF/NIFHS?

Perhaps not Sentry Hill.
[We've just learnt that "Mr. McKINNEY" (aka Wesley BONAR), having been on furlough for a long time while the venue was closed to the public, has accepted an offer to "retire" from his long role there. Sad, sad, sad.

Capt. Jock

Antrim / Re: John Wilson (1785-1873) and Jane Lennon (1792-1843) (Ballylaggan)
« on: Saturday 17 April 21 17:28 BST (UK)  »
Hi Allister,

Twins can be classified in to two varieties:

1) IDENTICAL - such caused by an "accident" of nature.

The development process (mitosis) hiccups at a very early stage, producing two embryos from one egg.
Each contains an identical set of genes, though such may then develop (slightly) differently.

There is NO tendency for this to happen down family lines.
So, as such, it is NOT a genealogical trait.

2) NON-IDENTICAL - such caused by the release of multiple eggs immediately prior to the time of fertilisation.

This can result in multiple quite-different embryos.
Such IS a genealogical trend, carried down the female line (obviously).
[Some women are very prone to it, and pass such down to their female offspring.]

N.B. Female children are born with their full (finite) life's-complement of eggs (for "their" creation of the next generation) already aboard.

Such eggs are "created" while the (yet to be born) "future mother" is still within the womb of her own mother (aka "future granny").

There have been studies conducted on such, particularly in the context of the Irish Famine.
[How did Granny's experience of deprivation during such, affect the future bodies/lives/life-expectancy of her grandchildren.  Interesting /scary stuff!]


Identical siblings are much less common than non-identical ones.

The upshot for your research is therefore that, if you reckon there were many "twins" within your family's descent chain, they are much more likely to have been non-identical ones.

As such, they will follow the female lines of descent.
Such will thus be more likely to NOT having WILSON as their surname.
[Unless there was an element of cousins marrying ...]

Capt Jock  (an accident of nature, yet still "beloved of God"!)

Antrim / Re: Allen Bell, b.1840/41 Crumlin, Co Antrim
« on: Saturday 27 March 21 16:13 GMT (UK)  »

Yep, thats right.
(vol.32 p33 as above)

Guess it was known as "DALWAY's other bawn".
[Probably to stop him being being jibed with "DALWAY ... has only got one bawn".]


Perhaps I was a tad harsh on old Phil of TT (who we all love of course!).
[I was only reporting what I heard from a colleague who had worked with him.
 They, the other diggers, inspiringly thought that they performed best when he was outstanding in his (own) field.]

His accent would have fitted in well around Ballynure.
[Many of Elizabeth I's venturous captains hailed from the West Country (of England).
 Such "twang" underlies the Belfast patois to this day.
  e.g. Francis DRAKE, Walter RALEIGH & John CHICHESTER,
 then his successor, his brother Arthur CHICHESTER.
 The latter was granted extensive lands around Belfast.
 His descendants became Lords Donegall.
 Sir Francis CHICHESTER, first solo circumnavigator of the World,
 hails from this family stable, near Barnstable in Devon.

 [Official title in the peerage being "Inishowen and Fisherwick".
  This latter deriving from the SKEFFINGTON family, Lords Masserene and Ferrard,
  who'd married in to the CLOTWORTHYs at Antrim Castle.
  Lord Donegall bought their estate/mansion in Staffordshire,
  in the run up to the 1801 Union of the British/Irish Parliaments.
  In order to sit in the British Parliament you had to own a "seat" within its lands.

  The expense in buying/developing this Fisherwick holding bankrupted the Donegalls.
  Their estate office / hunting lodge at Doagh (near Ballyclare) is named after it.

  Interestingly, there is a small peninsula in Inishowen named Doagh.
  Inishowen is the large peninsula lying to the West of Lough Foyle & beyond in Co. Donegal.
  The CHICHESTERs acquired lands there after Cahir O'DOHERTY's disastrous uprising,
  becoming the largest land holders in Ireland.]

 Ian Campbell Ross Jonathan SWIFT, the famous author of Gulliver's Travels,
 started his "church" career as a prebendary priest minding the cure of Kilroot
 preaching at the small (now ruined, CoI) church at Ballynure.
 His father, a lawyer, a Royalist in the Civil War, hailed from Goodrich, Herefordshire.
 He scarpered to Dublin to escape persecution, dying there just before his only son was born in late 1667.]

Capt. Jock

Antrim / Re: The Huguenots - and the surname Quirey
« on: Tuesday 09 March 21 01:03 GMT (UK)  »
Hi again Kathy-9,

Watched a TV programme about Marie CURIE last night.
[The first ever person to be awarded two Nobel prizes, in different branches of Science.]

CURIE was her married name, adopted from her husband Pierre.
His family were Hugenots.
[She was Polish.]

Both were lifted from the rural family grave and were reburied within The Pantheon in Paris.
[After checking that they weren't too radioactive so as to pose a public risk!]


However, I think that I may have found you a much stronger candidate for the origins of your QUIREY surname, with good resonances with the alternative spellings encountered in Ireland.

It is "Le QUÉRÉ".    Meaning: "The Cobbler".

[So a good honest feet-on-the-ground "artisanal/occupational" name.]

Apparently, French surnames beginning "QU" are strongly indicative of origins from Brittany.
[Though not exclusively so ...]

Many Hugenots escaped through the Channel Islands.
[e.g. Saumarez DUBORDIEU, strapped to the back of his 90-year-old great-grandfather.]

Found plenty for you to chomp on amongst the residents of Jersey!

Now, all I have to do is find my mis-filed copious research notes ...
[Thought that I had better update you from memory in the meantime.]

Back again soon!

Capt. Jock

Antrim / Re: Allen Bell, b.1840/41 Crumlin, Co Antrim
« on: Monday 08 March 21 20:30 GMT (UK)  »

Yes, 'tis time to bring back the TT experience a.s.a.p. to Norn Iron.
[My old grandad used to act as marshall for it in the 1950-1960s, as well as for the go-karting!]

Only teasing - you meant the more "Earthy" stuff.
[Where there's muck there's brass (or hopefully gold)!]

This URL shows the geographical connection between
  Dalway's Bawn & Castle Dobbs (near Ballycarry village / Carrickfergus town)
  Castlehill (near Ballynure village).

[Such was one of the many offerings produced from throwing ' "dalway's bawn" +map' in to a BING search.]

Pretty sure that the TT series has run its run.
[Though "The Big Dig" seems to be a follow on ...]

There were a few episodes from NI, most notably at (???) Dundrum Castle, O'Neill's Castle and Dunseverick (Iron Age roundhouses).

The Dundrum evacuation unexpectedly uncovered a "cashell" (an early Irish Christian church).
[Unfortunately, no "stash of cash" - the Leprechauns had moved the end of the rainbow elsewhere the day before.]

This was the place that John de COURCY established his first foothold in Ulster.
He was married to Affreca, daughter of the King of Man and the Isles.
[Expect (c.f. today's revelations from Harry & Meghan) that there was much speculation at that time about what colour of skin their offspring might proudly exhibit ...]

My legs have been slowly descending back in to Africa (the land of our ultimate origins) for years now.
[Probably due to too much imbibing of the Devil's Buttermilk!]

As a homage to Geneva, a city open and welcoming to the oppressed, Les Freres Papinot have released a new product (a strong dark beer) to celebrate BLM.
Long-life to Liberty!
[Goodness knows how he got that face tan.
 The only time I visited the city I couldn't even see the fountains, let alone the mountains!
 So, after John KNOX's old church slammed their doors, I amused myself with exploring the souterains ...]

Such followed the death by drowning in the lake of a slave who was trying to escape from humiliating display in the City's market in 1556.
From the cathedral pulpit, CALVIN launched a vibrant call to make Geneva the world emblem of tolerance and respect for human dignity.

"Post Tenebras, Lux!"    (Trans: "After the Darkness, Light!")
[Slogan of The Rennaissance & The Reformation(s).]

"Post Tenebras, Dignitas".     (Trans: "After the Darkness, Dignity!")
[Slogan of CALVIN (?), Les Freres Papinot  (and BLM sympathizers now?).]

[Wish I'd been at the Product Marketing brainstorming meeting ...]

I talked to someone once who'd worked alongside the big TT fellow.

He was reported as having two overriding characteristics in the field:
  a) Profligacy with Saxon swear words;
  b) Spectacular rift valley clearing technique, using aerosol particles.

Other diggers vied to ensure that he kept his head in the sand and that they were situate upwind from him when he talked thru' his other major orifice!

Capt. Jock

P.S. There is as fine photo of Dalway's Bawn on P.15 in Ernie SCOTT's erudite A5-sized book on the local history:

 "Ballynure, History and Happenings in the village over the past Four Hundred Years"
 Ernest McAlister SCOTT
 Shanway Press  2004 (Reprinted 2008). pp. 119

The caption there also refers to the Bellaghy Bawn, now a museum and tribute center to the poet Seamus HEANEY.
[Bellaghy is a townland lying roughly mid-way between Ballymena & Ballymoney, just West of the main road, within the parish of Rasharkin. Interesting to learn that the head of one of the London merchant companies (JONES) was based in Co. Antrim (such county, supposedly, NOT being part of the Plantation).]


"The foundations of a castle built by John DALWAY, a cornet under Walter Devereux in Essex's army, are to be seen in Castletown, about 1 mile north east of Ballynure.
The castle was erected about 1609."

Ref: p.33
The Ordnance Survey Memoirs of Ireland. Vol.32
1832~3, 1835~40
Ballynure and District

The Institute of Irish Studies
The Queen's University of Belfast

Pub. 1995
ISBN 0-85389-552-X PPI

Sounds just like a place that the Belfast Naturalist Field Club (?) might have visited on their sojourns. Joseph BIGGAR and William Fee McKINNEY were enthusiastic members. Check out Linenhall Library, Ulster Museum, newspapers ...?

Was it a (modest) castle or a fortified cattle enclosure (aka "bawn") ?

Did DALWAY not get around to finishing off the walls with whitewash as well as DOBBS?

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 ... 55