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Messages - Rol

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Denbighshire Lookup Requests / Re: Look-up request: Ruabon PRs -- DAVIES
« on: Tuesday 09 August 11 04:33 BST (UK)  »

Hi Gnu and Annie,

Rather thought that post of mine would catch your eye,  Gnu. ;)  Glad to see how you have opened things up.  But I am afraid that the purpose of this missive is just to say that I am going to have to defer making a substantive reply for a little,  because I am very time-poor this week and mostly have to be away from base.  Still,  I can assure you both that there is more to tell on the bigger picture -- and I plan to tell it,  if others don't first!


P.S.  Gnu,  ref. your Reply 11 above,  if you get a moment take another look at your inbound PMs for 20 Feb. 2011 and the old Pen y Clawdd,  Chirk thread. :)

Denbighshire Lookup Requests / Re: Look-up request: Ruabon PRs -- DAVIES
« on: Monday 08 August 11 06:36 BST (UK)  »

It is a pity that she does not show up in the PR,  given that the census statements that she was born at Ruabon looked like the first support in primary sources that could validate her father Thomas Davies's alleged connection with Trefynant,  the farm -- and later chapel,  burial ground and built-up area -- towards the southern end of the parish of Ruabon.  Otherwise there seems to be absolutely no contemporary evidence of such a link,  despite assertions to be found elsewhere on and off-line.  But the idea of his temporary residence there during the construction of the great canal aqueduct over the Dee nearby remains entirely plausible -- see the information in the Davies thread on the Inverness Board.

The chapel possibilities are always worth checking,  insofar as possible.  But against that it should be borne in mind that just a few years earlier Thomas Davies had children baptised in Chirk parish church;  and a couple of years on there are possibles for later siblings of Anne's being baptised in the established church at Shrewsbury.

It may just be worth rehearsing the full known evidence about her date and place of birth,  for the record -- beginning with Osprey's first examination of the matter,  on the Montgomeryshire board:

The 1861 & 1871 give Anne's place of birth as Ruabon, although the 1871 does have Ruabon, Shropshire when it's in Denbighshire
[my emphasis]

For ready ref.,  here are the census details:

1851 = Edinburgh Canongate,  ED 34,  schedule 10.  (I have not seen an image of the original.)  Stated age 50,  so implied birth year range 1800-01.  PoB transcribed as "Wales, North".

1861 = Edinburgh St Cuthbert's,  ED 28,  schedule 62.  (Not seen an image of the original.)  Stated age 58,  so implied birth year range 1802-03.  PoB transcribed as "Ruabon, Derbyshire".

1871 = West Ham,  Essex,  RG10/1629 fo.136v p.46.  Stated age 67,  so implied birth year range 1803-04.  PoB "Salop Ruabon".

The middle initial entered for her in 1871 is badly written,  but my bet is that the enumerator intended to write a D,  not the G transcribed by Anc***  Best analogy for a poorly formed D that I spotted was the first letter of Domestic Servant,  five lines up from the bottom on the preceding page.  (What do others think?)

It is rather odd that a middle initial should appear for the first time so late on in her life.

In view of her location in 1871 and her invisibility in 1881,  there seems to be a fair chance that she is the Anne Owen whose death in West Ham RD aged 71 appears in the GRO indexes for Q4 1871 -- vol. 4a p.47.  But if so,  we must take it that the family decided to wave goodbye to her by posthumously overriding the (cosmetic?) age that Anne gave just a few months earlier at census time -- because that death age pushes her implied year of birth back to 1800 (or even into the last three months of 1799).

So,  to summarise the census and (likely) death entry evidence,  we have a maximum birth-year range of 1799 to 1804.


Montgomeryshire / Re: Aberhafesp Hall estate history
« on: Friday 05 August 11 07:11 BST (UK)  »

As David says, the long-running county historical journal, Montgomeryshire Collections,  probably provides the best store of online information about Aberhafesp in the years pre-1800.  William Valentine Lloyd's series of articles about the families of the county's successive high sheriffs is a particularly useful source.

The old family who lived there went by the surname Morgan,  but they died out in the male line early in the 18th c.  Lloyd has some info in Mont. Coll. vol.9,  starting at p.99 (including some anecdotes and the text of MIs in the church).  In 1876 the articles up to the sheriff who served in 1639 were re-published as a freestanding book,  and Anc***'s databases include a scanned copy -- so,  for those with access,  that is an alternative way in.  (To use that route,  enter Montgomeryshire and sheriffs as keywords into the "Card Catalogue" search screen,  then on the next page insert Morgan as the surname,  and select the resulting hit for p.517.)  As mentioned there,  the heiress was Abigail Morgan,  who married Walter Waring of Owlbury near Bishop's Castle;  but it seems the couple had no surviving children.

After suspending his series of articles in Mont. Coll. at vol.9 (the ones separately published),  W V Lloyd took up his pen again and produced a further batch,  starting in vol.27 (1893) -- and a piece on pp.169-171 of that volume reveals what happened on Abigail Waring's death.

As Gnu posted in Reply 4,  citing Aberhafesp BTs,  she was buried there on 27 Dec. 1753.  Lloyd's vol.27 article states that the joint residuary legatees of both real and personal estate named in her PCC will were:
her cousins, Henry Shere of Lombard Street, London, goldsmith, and Elizabeth Proctor, wife of Mr. Robert Proctor of Botolph Lane, London, merchant.

In fact,  the preceding volume of Mont. Coll. prints Abigail's will in full here -- and,  as a bonus,  a browse through the surrounding pages will take the reader to several of the family's earlier wills proved in the PCC.  So no real need to let TNA have their will fees. :)

In summary,  it does seem that the later Proctors of Aberhafesp Hall probably had a blood connection with the Morgans -- assuming that they did indeed descend from that marriage between Robert Proctor and Elizabeth.  (I see that the Anc*** database of LMA London marriages shows that a Robert Proctor of St Botolph Billingsgate and an Elizabeth Ellis "of the same parish" married by licence at the Bridewell Chapel,  on 24 July 1740 -- Ellis being at least a Welsh surname,  albeit not Morgan;  so a possibility for a female-line cousin of Abigail's.*)

None of which,  I fear,  has revealed what has become of the main Aberhafesp Hall estate archives.  Absent a response on this forum,  it might be worth trying to tap local knowledge via an enquiry in the Powys FHS or Montgomeryshire Genealogical Society journals.  Beyond that,  as A2A has failed to locate much,  I am afraid one would have to undertake the time-consuming but often rewarding task of approaching the successors to the firms of solicitors involved,  to discover what might still be in their dusty basements.


 *  ADDED FOOTNOTE :  I have seen some further circumstantial evidence that improves the odds of this being the right marriage.  Towards the end of her will Abigail Waring made a number of smaller pecuniary bequests,  and among them there is this paired legacy:  "unto my cousin Jonathan Ellis of Botolph Lane, London, Esquire, and unto William Proctor, Esq., the sum of £20 apiece to buy them mourning".  And among the (very sparse) baptisms at St George's Botolph Lane are those of William Fownds Ellis (30 Jan. 1705/6),  Elizabeth Ellis (22 Mar. 1707/8),  Jane Ellis (19 May 1709),  Francis Ellis (28 July 1710) and Ann Ellis (24 Nov. 1715) -- all children of Jonathan Ellis and Jane his wife.  The household seems to have often been living out of town on the south bank of the Thames,  because on 18 Sept. 1709 "Jane daught'r of M'r Jonathan Ellis of S't Botolphs Billingsg't. London" was buried at St Alfege's Greenwich;  on 22 Feb. 1715/6 Anne may well have been the "Anne d. Jonathan Ellis" who was buried at St Olave's Bermondsey;  and then on the following 13 July "Wm Fownes s of Jonathan Ellis  March:t from London" was buried at St Nicholas's Deptford.  Finally,  the father too was buried at St Nicholas's Deptford:  "1758 … August … 8  Jonathan Ellis merchant from Botolph lane London".  (Unfortunately I have not identified a plausible marriage entry to provide evidence of the maiden name of Jonathan Ellis's wife Jane.)

Montgomeryshire / Re: Aberhafesp Hall estate history
« on: Friday 05 August 11 07:04 BST (UK)  »

On A2A  ( ) a document held at Shropshire Archives:

1643/70 dated 29 August 1811  refers to Edward Bernard Proctor of Aberhafesp Hall

Here is another via A2A,  also at Shrewsbury Archives -- a marriage settlement of the estate in 1782,  which serves to sketch in some of the Proctor relationships a generation further back.  Looks as though the main house was then let to a Richard Whittington (familiar pairing . . . ).  Quite a few tenements are listed,  apparently specifying the occupier of each;  but the key names for present purposes do not seem to be among them.  See:*#1-3-33

I wonder what the earliest refs. are that Gemma has showing the Smiths in occupation of the cottages.  Perhaps they were purchased by the Proctors from another land owner.  For instance,  if one goes to the NLW's ISYS search screen and enters Proctor /20/ Aberha* as the search term,  a hit comes up for a purchase by Henry Proctor of property in Aberhafesp parish from the Powis Castle Estate in 1820-23 (within a file covering a variety of disposals made by the Clive trustees in that period).

More -- about an earlier period -- in next post.


Denbighshire / Re: Edward Mostyn THELWELL born 1844
« on: Tuesday 02 August 11 22:35 BST (UK)  »


As Gnu's post explains,  I think the problem you found was that the library you have been using had only subscribed to the first edition of the Gale 19th Century British Newspapers database.  When the second edition came along not everybody decided that they had the budget for a sub upgrade.  As Gnu also says,  Liverpool County Library is one of those with the second version -- and Wrexham was certainly omitted from the first edition.  Last time I looked (admittedly some time ago now),  the National Library of Wales still only had the first edition.  I believe that the BL has a third version in preparation,  this time in partnership with BrightSolid (the Thomson subsidiary that runs ScotlandsPeople and FindMyPast,  and also not long ago bought GenesRe from ITV).  See this item published on the BBC website in May.

As to this thread more generally . . .

Edward Mostyn THELWELL married Sarah Fenwick nee Hilton in the Sept Q. of 1873 at Ormskirk, Lancashire, England.

All I can find about Edward is his birth June Q. 1844 in Wrexham, Denbighshire, Wales.
Any information about this elusive man would be very welcome

OK . . .

Forget another wife, I've just found where I've made my mistake ...

Otherwise the tree is solid.

Excellent . . .

With ref. to Gnu's Reply 16 on p.2 of this thread -- viz
[ … ]
 -- the same secondary source as I cited above in Reply 30 ties Sophia Rebecca reasonably firmly into the Owen of Woodhouse family. 
If one clicks on the name of her husband Bevis on Sophia Rebecca's own page it becomes apparent that the source used for her marriage was Joseph Morris's 19th c. collection of Shropshire pedigrees,  now kept at Shrewsbury Record Office.

I think Gen might have overlooked this piece of information about Edward's mother so bringing up again  :)


But . . .

What did I overlook in his mothers notes? I'm really only interested in the Fenwick-Hilton-Thelwell link, not the whole lineage of Thelwell's in Wales:-)

and . . .

Getting a bit off topic here as I'm only interested in the union of the Thelwells with Sarah Fenwick nee Hilton.....

But it's been a real roller coaster of a ride through the Thelwells and Wales!

Ah.  Right.  Understood . . . now. ;D  And you are quite correct to say that some of us did stray off-topic,  especially if one construes what you wrote in that opening post with due care and attention: "… any information about this elusive man would be very welcome" (my italics).

But you know how it is -- on an ancestry-oriented forum,  once those hounds are off the leash they just kinda assume the OP is hunting more than one generation.  Basic canine instinct.  So if they really get running on the scent,  the boss has just got to blow that whistle loud . . . and early. ;)

Anyway,  no harm done -- it has been good exercise,  and it is excellent that you too enjoyed that "real roller coaster of a ride through the Thelwells and Wales".  With any luck we have all put together some Google hits for future searchers;  let's hope haec olim meminisse iuvabit. :)


P.S.  Talking of Google et al.,  and in the interest of future successful search-term selection,  N.B. that once you cross the Cambrian frontier it is almost invariably Thelwall -- in the absence of typos in the source text.

Durham Lookup Requests / Re: John Clish
« on: Tuesday 02 August 11 07:15 BST (UK)  »

Greetings FM -- and thank you very much indeed for taking the trouble to have a look at JC's settlement examination and then fill us in about its contents.  A nice surprise! :)  I do hope that you were able to piggyback the lookup onto a visit to the RO that you were making anyway.  We are lucky that you seem to keep an eye open for Ringmer-flavoured topics on unexpected pages.

I am already overdue a session with the proverbial cold towel wrapped round my head to ingest the new data that Gnu put up a couple of days back,  and it is great to have that info from JC's examination to inject into the mix.

I am a bit rusty on the details of settlement law as then applicable.  Presumably JC and family would have been hoping to be accorded the right to claim on the ratepayers of Ringmer and stay where they were,  while the guardians would have been seeking to avoid them becoming a burden on the parish.  Does the document (perhaps by way of an indorsement) suggest what actually resulted?  Are there indications that the matter went to Quarter Sessions,  and/or was litigated with the guardians of Newburn or Washington?

If JC was still a private in the RHA,  there would presumably have been no room to contest his employment status.  There were probably special rules dealing with the obligations of ratepayers in parishes with a large and continuing military presence.   But the words "John CLISH was a private in the Artillery Drivers now at Ringmer" do raise new doubts in my mind about his service record.

On the Q of illegitimacy -- if JC was trying for a settlement down south,  are you saying that it would have been to his advantage to claim that,  as a filius nullius,  he had no paternal settlement by virtue of place of birth -- or the contrary?  In other words,  faced with a dispute about his settlement status,  would he have had an incentive to massage his evidence in one direction or the other?  (Of course he may well have been entirely ignorant of the principles involved;  but in such situations people can be surprisingly canny,  esp. if they have time to "ask around" a bit for a few tips.)

Much appreciate your help with this.


Denbighshire / Re: Edward Mostyn THELWELL born 1844
« on: Tuesday 02 August 11 05:56 BST (UK)  »

With ref. to Gnu's Reply 16 on p.2 of this thread -- viz

A possible on the IGI (and pilot) for [Sophia] Rebecca

Baptism 4 July 1824 Oswestry Rebecca Owen d/o William Owen and Rebecca

Not  found anything worthwhile on a search for Tryphena - a few Ancestry trees but nothing much apart from marrying a Tanner and emigrating to Australia. Her death record in Malvern, Victoria only has her parents as unknown Owen.

I'm thinking that Rebecca's surname might possiibly be Mostyn


Added - A strange  patron submission on the IGI

Rebecca Mostyn-Owen b. about 1777, Woodhouse, Shropshire

Parents - William Mostyn-Owen and Rebecca Dodd

 -- the same secondary source as I cited above in Reply 30 ties Sophia Rebecca reasonably firmly into the Owen of Woodhouse family.  But it does so via a different page which is not properly linked to the Thelwall pedigree as a cross-reference in the database.

Following the link from there upwards to her father reveals the full list of her siblings -- 13 of them,  including dates of birth.  Of those in the house with (Sophia) Rebecca at Oswestry in 1841,  Tryphena Owen is shown as b. 17 Oct. 1825,  Rupert Mostyn Owen as b. 15 Nov. 1832,  Julia Owen and Llewelyn Mostyn Owen as twins b. 4 July 1836,  and Harriett Jessie Owen as b. 12 August 1838 (surnames repeated for the benefit of the search engines ;) ).

If one clicks on the name of her husband Bevis on Sophia Rebecca's own page it becomes apparent that the source used for her marriage was Joseph Morris's 19th c. collection of Shropshire pedigrees,  now kept at Shrewsbury Record Office.

(Morris has a secure place in my pantheon of genealogical heroes as the man who saved one of the best 17th c. pedigree collections focused on NE Wales,  by making a painstaking MS copy of the Salusbury Book of Pedigrees in the library at Wynnstay just a few years before most of the house,  including the priceless contents of the library,  burned to the ground in 1858.  His two-volume copy is now NLW Wynnstay MSS. 143-4 -- and I never tire of citing it!)


Denbighshire / Re: Edward Mostyn THELWELL born 1844
« on: Monday 01 August 11 21:19 BST (UK)  »

Just come to read the terrific whodunnit you have all assembled!

The "back story",  touched on by Maidmarion in Reply 22 and Heather in Reply 25,  is perhaps almost off-topic (and already well known to Gen?);  but if anybody wants to take a look at the related pedigree material in PACF and Powys Fadog,  as copied into the FamilySearch wiki"Community Trees" Welsh pages,  this would be a good point to start browsing:

"How are the mighty fallen,  and the weapons of war perished". ;)


Merionethshire / Re: John Wynne als Salisbury will 1676
« on: Monday 01 August 11 06:47 BST (UK)  »

Hello Roger -- and thanks for posting those Salusbury/Salesbury extracts from Bryneglwys PR.  It is good to have them available for reference online.

I cannot immediately place them,  but I doubt that they were from the Meyarth branch,  or their cousins who for a couple of generations owned Pont y Go(e) in Llanelidan (later known as [Plas] Nantclwyd).*

So who might they have been?  Maybe connected to the mystery Hugh of Clocaenog (will 1661 -- see the Anne Salesbury thread).  But here is another possibility.

Although most of the Salesburys who settled around the top end of the Vale of Clwyd (Clocaenog, Gyffylliog, Llanfwrog, Llanelidan, Gwyddelwern, etc.) seem to have been younger sons deriving from the Bachymbyd/Rug line -- whence the source of their land and the "e" usually preferrred as the second vowel in their surnames -- there was also a smaller group in the same area who descended from the branch of the family based at Plas Isa,  Llanrwst.  Robert of Plas Isa acquired some land in or about Llanelidan from the Bishop of Bangor in 1492,  and then in 1522 settled some or all of it on a younger son of his called Hugh (who came to live there -- and was still alive in 1570 but dead by 1582).

Deeds relating to this Llanelidan branch are mixed in with the NLW Crosse of Shaw Hill collection.  (For those interested,  the whole schedule is available here from the NLW's ISYS site as a lightweight word.doc download -- only about 630 KB.)  In the Welsh pedigrees they are to be found on Salesbury sheet 7 in Peter Bartrum's WG2 compendium.  Bartrum follows p.84 of Gruffydd Hiraethog's NLW Peniarth MS 176 in showing Hugh's younger sons as Thomas,  Robert and Roger -- with Roger probably a clergyman.  NLW Wynnstay MS. 144 p.731 omits that Roger,  but shows a Roger as a son of Thomas's.

The document schedule does indeed include several refs. to a Revd. Roger from 1582.  But then it also goes on to lend a hand to the Wynnstay 144 version of the pedigree (making one suspect the existence of two Rogers) -- in No. 640,  a bond dated 14 Jan. 1599/1600,  one of the parties is named as

Roger ap Thomas ap Hughe Salesbury of Talybidwal, hundred of Yale, co. Denbigh gent.

(A little warning if doing a word search in the schedule as presently offered for download -- like most of the schedules accessible via ISYS it has apparently been re-keyed from the printed original,  and the copy-typist has inverted two letters and written the place name as Talybiwdal.)

I have no information to show whether the people mentioned in Bryneglwys PR later in the 17th c. were descendants of this Roger Salesbury of Talybidwal -- but the idea might merit further exploration.  At the back of my mind there is also a vague recollection that the place may have been the subject of some chancery litigation;  but I fear that the ref. would be not be very easily re-discoverable.


 * Wynnstay 144 p.727 incorporates a nice little potted history of Nantclwyd's early owners -- with a date helpfully attached:
Foulk Salesbury [ap Thomas Vychan Salesbury of Llanelidan ap Piers] … Who together with his posterity sold Pont y go to Symon Parry, which Symon dis~herited his eldest son Thomas and made his second son William owner of Pontygoe, whose sole daughter and heir by her father's consent is married to Eubule Thelwall, 2'nd son to John Thelwall of Llanrhaiadd'r and Plascoch, 1652.

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