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Messages - Essnell

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Durham Lookup Requests / Re: Unknown Surnames - BDM records
« on: Saturday 06 November 10 14:27 GMT (UK)  »
Hello Everyone,

I want to shout!!! something fantastic has happened.

Ages ago I joined  but as you are aware I didn't get too far.

Fanny's name stumped me and without it I just floundered and gave up. Let the subscription go. After finding Annie and Jim's letter, I went back and purchased some credits and started again - still not getting very far.    :(
In the meantime I found Rootschat - my salvation.

About an hour ago I went back to genes to do some searching - didn't do that - found messages and hot matches. 

Here's the bit: In 2008 there was a message from Annie and Jim's GGgrandson!!!   

I don't know how much he has yet as he is a long way from where I'm looking 3 generations. I have updated my subscription and contacted him.

What will I find out!!!   As soon as I hear I'll let you know. He may have the info that will unlock this puzzle.

Do any of you believe in synchronicity. This is a perfect example!

Back in 2008 I probably wouldn't have realised the connection.
there was also someone else possibly connected to another part of the family.

wow what an evening.



Durham Lookup Requests / Re: Unknown Surnames - BDM records
« on: Saturday 06 November 10 01:07 GMT (UK)  »
Hi All,

Does anyone know anything about Infirmary Records?

Ellen Craggs had very bad eyes - not sure whether it was ulcers or what. i know she had to go often to the Infirmary. Possibly Bradford.

Is Keighley very far from there.
Ellen[Grandma] said that Annie and some of the others worked in the wollen and cotton mills there. I think they walked to work. the walked 3miles to the shows with 3d. for the day and grandma always bought herself a hair ribbon. 

how's that for family memories.  Wish she had told us more.

I am ordering the Annie's Marriage Cert from 1892  first.

Where is Aysgarth in relation the Sheffield. Maybe Googlemaps will help.

Still can't find anything on Fanny and Joseph in 1871 even using Massey.

this is only the beginning I have to go back into a Smith record as well but later.

Durham Lookup Requests / Re: Unknown Surnames - BDM records
« on: Friday 05 November 10 22:01 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Deb usa,

Yes I have just posed that question re Annie and James to myself.

I'll get both ordered today. See what can be ascertained from them. It will take some time to get out here about a week.

It's a better kick-off point from something definite.

Great on finding Ellen on her trip back to England I wasn't aware it was as late as 1914. Turned out to be a quick visit - WWI got in the way.

Thanks. You are all so good at this searching - I will have to do something to repay you all. What?

Cheers Lynette

Durham Lookup Requests / Re: Unknown Surnames - BDM records
« on: Friday 05 November 10 11:49 GMT (UK)  »
 :D  Hi Everyone, Hope you all had a great day.

As I said I got the details for 1911.  {FIY}

As in my letter from 1912.
The ten kids is correct and the address.
This is concrete info but will need to follow this down to see if there is anyone from my generation searching or who knows this family.
Sorry about posting - I thought that when I typed it all up myself - re hashing order etc. It wasn't wrong. I also believed that info of this age was available with no problems.

We can't get info from Aust Records after 1964 without a lot of identification docs. but before that it's OK.

Would sending for Annie Lambert and James Marriage Cert from GRO be of any use other that nice to have? Or can't I do that?   I was thinking that it might shed some light on Annie's parents and perhaps corroberate what's on Ellen and Fred's from here.

Thanks for all the help.
thanks JenB not a problem - done.

Durham Lookup Requests / Re: Unknown Surnames - BDM records
« on: Friday 05 November 10 02:21 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Jen B and Deb usa.

Jabez Crabtree seems to have been quite important to the family. I have no idea why.

Ellen 13 yrs was taken in by them after Fanny died - there's a story to that.
I believe the two younger brothers were also there for a while.
Ellen visited them on the return trip to England 1912-14.

? was Fanny his mistress.  ? are the 3 younger kids or most of them his.
Since this is so convoluted one starts to muse.
Jabez was reasonably well off being a dentist and grocer. The home was from what I got told very nice and they had really nice silver cuttlery and a scullery maid etc...

Ambly :  Fred and Ellen marriage in Qld Registry  - tried to send that info post only half posted.
I was given Massey as a posssibility for Fanny's maiden name but it doesn't search to well  -   available info from last evenings search:-

Marriage info       FANNY MASSEY,
                          Marriage: LEICESTER
                           Vol:  7a    page 205
                       Reg:   Jan-Feb-Mar  Qtr.    1869

This might help.  Jack [John] Craggs nothing positive turned up.

Joseph and Fanny still ??? on 1871 census

Annie and James Lambert 1911 census.  all 10 kids and mum and dad
at the address of the letter  - so this is concrete info
I'll attach my word file. it wont work . {I'll send the info later - have to go shopping.}

Interesting info re John ? brother  - the tree grows.

what if the other bros  have huge families like Annie?

That's all I've got  -- mmmm on the death cert for Fanny the wording reads to interpret the name Craggs as "Kelly otherwise Craggs"

cheers and   thanks to all

Durham Lookup Requests / Re: Unknown Surnames - BDM records
« on: Thursday 04 November 10 14:06 GMT (UK)  »
Hi All, thanks for all the looking. I don't understand why these people are so hard to find. I thought I was missing something.

More info which doesn't help! I have checked the Qld. Gov. BMD Register. It is now on line and some is searchable.
result:  Re grandma  --- Ellen Graggs.
Marriage is    Ellen Craggs.
Death Cert. name is      Ellen Holmes. 

Durham Lookup Requests / Re: Unknown Surnames - BDM records
« on: Thursday 04 November 10 05:42 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Ambly,
Lynette once more.

re birth Cert  Margaret Ellen

Details as requested of GRO;

Name: Margaret Ellen Craggs
Qtr: December
District: Darlington
County: Co. Durham North Riding of Yorkshire
Volume: 10a page 38

I have a Death Cert. for my mother's sister and their mother is stated as Ellen Margaret Craggs. This lady was Chloe Holmes.

Perhaps I'm using the wrong details. It is quite confusing as she seems to have swapped the names around and used only Ellen in many cases.

on Annie:  I believe she could also have been Margaret Annie  I have s birth detail for a Margaret Annie which seem to fit??? It is vol 10a  no page no.

1891 census - I had this but wasn't too sure of the correctness. It seemed to be the one. So it is in my file.

1901 was a sort of mystery. I kept info on an Annie, born in Keighley 1872, age 29 she was alone. I didn't get the address. It seemed incorrect.

Most of the info I have is 5-6 yrs old and could have been re-evaluated in that time.

William:  a little from 1891 aged 16.  I haven't got much on him or James or Joseph.

These weren't all that important and I thought I couldn't be sure of their records until I sorted out their mother and father. This was the thing.

More checking. tis has taken on a life!!

Tah nks once more - your all marvelous.


Durham Lookup Requests / Re: Unknown Surnames - BDM records
« on: Wednesday 03 November 10 23:46 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Ambly,

Yes! and the plot thickens.  -- I have been thinking this all along.

I have just searched for Joseph Kelley in the 1871 Census and found a family - you wouldn't believe.

Joseph  1, Eleanor L   2 ,   William H 4,  Annie 10,     

Parents: Joseph 31, and Ann 34

The place of little Joseph's birth conflicts with the 1881 info but she {Fanny} may have by then been with John Craggs and used the more appropriate info.

I.e.  1871   Hulme, Lancashire, England.    1881  Sheffield, Yorkshire.

With Annie being 10 she would be well aware by 1873 of her mother getting re-married.  Unlikely but a possibility.
I have also picked up a Sarah Ann kelly - need to check this again.

I have applied for Margaret Ellen's Birth Cert.
There is some problem with the Mother's identification -  no wonder!   I bet it is Kelly and not Craggs  and possibly the kids are registered as Kelly but known as Craggs. 

Annie also appears to have Margaret in her registered name. This would be a second Annie in the family if the other info above is correct.
However Grandma never mentioned the other kids.

I was also told by my Grandmother that one of the little children had been severely burnt when his clothes caught fire and he died. I believe he was know as Bill or Billy    ? william the 4yr.old.

I also wasn't able to track a death cert for this child as one of the Graggs group on the 1881 census. Thus it could possibly have been this other little boy.

Sister Annie and Jim   I have no surname  :-[    I do have the address.

No 6 Victoria Terrace, Luddenden, C.O. Yorks.  This was in 1912.  They had 10 children so the letter says.  another mystery! these were never mentioned - big surprise.

Looked this up on Google maps and it is still there! It's close or part of Halifax.

Grandma[Ellen]  was going back for a holiday as she wasn't well and this is the reply to her letter telling them of her coming visit. She returned to Australia on the last passenger ship to leave England in 1914 before the war broke out.

that's just info of interest.

I have checked the 1901 census    - blank and haven't got much from the 1911 may be that isn't available yet.

I thought of the electoral rolls but I need a surname for that.

The only marriage I found here is in 1905 and to get 10 kids bu 1912 there would need to be several twins??

Well I'm beginning to think my G-Gand mother was a bigamist.  We shall see.

Thanks again.   What a mess!

This forum is fantastic - the best I have encountered .

Durham Lookup Requests / Re: Unknown Surnames - BDM records
« on: Wednesday 03 November 10 14:54 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Everyone,
Lynette here - I am absolutely stunned by the response I have had to my request. Thanks so much. I can hardly type as my hands are shaking. I have been back and forth over all this for at least 5years and never getting too far.

To answer all the queries that you have left for me to tell.
1. I have got a death certificate for Fanny as "Fanny Craggs". I got this from the Bradford Office. I faxed a letter to them. There were actually two certificates - one as I have for Craggs and the other for Kelly. 

On mine she died in Dec. 10th 1886 at Cullingworth, Bingley Township. She is noted as "Wife of John Craggs a Stone Mason".  This is all underlined.

At the far right hand outside all the normal information in tiny writing is a further note. It says " The info in col 2 for Craggs to be read Kelly and for col 5  for Wife of John Craggs stone mason  to read  "Housekeeper" This was corrected by the registrar John Green as a result of a Stat. Dec. by her eldest son Joseph Craggs and a man called Jabez Crabtree.

One can only guess what this implies.

Interestingly the original informant was Joseph Craggs who would have been
just 16 yrs old. Grandma was 13yrs. She went to live with the Crabtrees in Bingley. on the 1891 Census.

I wasn't aware "Kelley" could possibly be "kellay"  I tried other spellings unsuccessfully.

I have also used Frances without success but that's the fickleness of these records.

Deb. I have not found the kids together anywhere else, only on the 1881 census as Ambly also found. They were Joseph, Annie, Ellen, James, and William.  All with the surname Craggs. born 1870, 1872, 1874, 1875, 1876.
Birth Certs info was nonexistent except a possible one for Ellen and maybe Annie. Both Girls also had Margaret in their names.

Patrick Kellay seems a real possibility  I'll need to check that for a year date.  Fanny was supposed to have married in 1873 and again in 1883. 

This is also useful as my Grandmother spoke of another daughter " Sarah-ann Kelly" who I have never located may be Kellay will be it. She appaently didn't want her mother to marry as She would have a navie for a father - Miss prim!! as grandma said.

This means the kids were old enough to understand.

I'm sure my grandma used her middle name almost exclusively. We all knew her as Ellen.  I found just after posting my request some info on her immigration to Australia but only the dates and landing port - nothing about the vessel.

I also had the info on her marriage to Frederick Holmes - my grandpa.

Re the 1871 Census and Fanny and Joseph   I have another blank.
No I don't have her Death Certificate from Australia - it may be hidden like the letter I found on the weekend from her sister Annie and husband Jim - written in 1912. amazing.

 Think I've covered all the bases and thankyou so very very much.

I am waiting for Margaret Ellen's Birth Cert - if it gets sent as I didn't get it last time I tried as the info was confusing showing two possibilities.

I now have some homework to do and a direction to take. I'll let you know how I get along.

Also let me know if any of you had to pay for this info.

Lynette.    :) :D

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