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Messages - artifis

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1
The Common Room / Re: Apprenticing to your own father?
« on: Sunday 17 December 23 17:52 GMT (UK)  »
In the early 1800s my great x2 grandfather's eldest brother was apprenticed to their father, a clock and watchmaker, using the standard apprenticeship documentation but without any sum entered.

The standard apprenticeship agreement was onerous in what the apprentice could and couldn't do, what their wages would be year by year and how long they had to serve.

Using this for his son ensured that my great x 3 grandfather could ensure that his son stayed on the straight and narrow, where he could go in his spare time and basically who he was allowed to consort with.  This was in a south coast fishing village that certainly had smuggling connections like most did, had local coastal traders based in the town and had visiting coastal traders.  There was a 'lively' official pub trade and no doubt many semi official beer houses where other 'entertainments' were available. ::)   Years ago I spent ages listing all the pubs, hotels and beer seller establishments listed in the 1841-1911 censuses for Littlehampton where I live and I found many beer houses that were in one census but not the next where there were lots of younger ladies listed as living there along with the lady head of the place - this was in and around the road alongside the River Arun which was then navigable for several miles inland so very busy trading place.. No doubt these younger tenants provided the other 'entertainments' for the sailors!

Interestingly my ancestor was apprenticed to a father & son  shoe/boot maker establishment and I have his apprenticeship agreement document which was actually unenforceable as the legal bod who added all the names, dates etc. to the standard printed form made a significant error which basically invalidated it.  The agreement was held in some regard - not - as someone placed a tea mug on it leaving a lovely ring stain, fortunately on the back of the thick parchment so none seeped through to damage the text.

2
Sussex / Re: Stephen Eastwood of Burwash/ Etchingham
« on: Tuesday 26 September 23 17:14 BST (UK)  »
Sussex Family History Group have William's baptism transcribed as in Mayfield 20 March 1714/15 just as William. Similarly in the transcriptions for his marriage and burial.

That kind of suggests that either the trees showing Neville are mistake or somewhere along the line the name was imported into William's name.

Ancestry shows two William Eastwood's marrying in Yorkshire in about the same period as the Burwash marriage 10 June 1739.

3
The Hastings Fishermen's Museum are checking their records for me and a lady at the Old Hastings Preservation Society has suggested the Historic Hastings book by John Mainwaring Baines which has some info on Mark Joy - luckily West Sussex library has a copy I can borrow.

If these fail to give any answers I'll contact the Sussex Family History Group and East Sussex Records Office to see if they have any Joy family documents.

4
Bookbox and Goldie61 thank you so much, that's brilliant.

It wrecks my understanding of information given to me many years ago by a member of the White fishing family of Hastings who had collectively researched the White ancestry. 

The lady who gave me the information said that they'd found a lot of documents concerning the Joy(e) family and went onto tell me about the claim of having set sail in support of the English Fleet.  I'm wondering if my memory has misled me and the claim was in one of these documents. 

Unfortunately a particularly vicious virus bypassed the most expensive and most recommended security software at the time that I had installed - Kaspersky - and totally trashed my system.  Kaspersky didn't want to know or help.  As well as trashing the operating system it also trashed most of my files including the one where I'd recorded both the White lady's details and my summation of what she'd told me. Very little was recoverable and stupidly I hadn't backed up my info for some time!   ::)

I do remember she was a member of the Sussex Family History Group  so I'll try and contact her through that.

I'm intrigued that during his lifetime he claimed to have sailed in support and the maps from 1589 indicate vessels sailing from ports in support of the English Fleet so maybe he did or just sailed out after the fleets passed to see what pickings could be made from the debris left behind - rigging, pulley blocks etc.

The will translations has put the claim back into the realm of family legend again unless I can make contact with the White family again.

Thanks again for your help.

5
Thanks Bookbox.

I suspect that the will I posted is for Mark's son baptised 30 November 1582 or maybe a grandson, I'll check all Mark's descendants, I'm descended from his daughter Katheryne so I didn't check his male offspring.

The will you've kindly posted is the one I was going to post as a follow up to the one I did.

When you said it was the 1589 one is that the date of the will or its probation please?  Sorry I can't even make that out. ???

6
Thanks mckha489 for the link, for some weird reason although I have an Ancestry account it won't load it, tells me to subscribe.  :(

I've attached what I think is Mark's will.  If I'm right I'm surprised to see her appears to have been illiterate which is strange if he was a coastal trading boat owner - I think called New Dawn.

I'd be very interested to see what this document says, I'll keep the other one for a few days to save confusion.

7
Many years ago I was told by a member of the White family of Hastings that an ancestor Mark Joy(e) claimed in his will to have sailed in support of the English fleet.  My reaction was 'oh yeah' thinking it another family legend.  However a recent exhibition at the Royal Naval Museum at Portsmouth showed a series of maps drawn in 1589, the year after the Armada, clearly showing smaller boats putting out to sea from ports along the English coast.  The curator was excited to tell a reporter in an interview that the maps support legends of such support - suppling gunpowder, shot and other consumables etc.  This meant that the English fleet could bang away without worries of supplies whereas the Spanish had to be mindful that the only supplies they had were what they carried.

His seems to lend credence to what Mark Joy claimed so I'd like to verify his claims.

I have looked on Ancestry and found three documents relation to Mark Joy, I think they are official document copies of his will, probate and record in presumably the Canterbury records.  Unfortunately they are all written in the English of the day and with the pretty well total lack of punctuation I can't read them.

Would anyone be willing to have a go for me?

8
The Common Room / Re: flags/bunting on an old photo
« on: Tuesday 29 August 23 13:13 BST (UK)  »
There appears to be the numbers 22 on one of the flags, if that is a date then it could be George V's coronation on 22nd June 1911

9
Sussex / Re: Henry Saunders 1824-1915
« on: Saturday 17 June 23 12:35 BST (UK)  »
Don't forget the ages on the 1841 census were rounded for those over 15. So enumerated as 15, he could be 15-19.


I'd forgotten that and probably explains the apparent discrepancy however his birth year are all over the place in the censuses;  1841 - born 1826; 1851 - born 1825; 1861 - born 1827; 1871 - born 1825; 1881 - born 1826; 1891 - born 1823; 1901 - born 1823 & 1911 - born 1826.

I think I'll stick with the 1824 from his marriage record and 1823 in his burial record.

A baptism record would answer so much. :'(

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