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Messages - thistlebay

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10
The Common Room / Re: Meaning of jargon in will.
« on: Wednesday 30 March 16 12:54 BST (UK)  »
Thanks for replies again.

I will try and find the probate and / or deeds of property.  The son didn't reach majority til after his father's death, but in his will it does state that 'I appoint my Trustee to be a Trustee for the purposes of the Settled Land Acts'.  I don't know what this means either. But it would seem that he passed to his wife the house etc to be held by her but that when his son reached majority then the property would then become his.   'I declare that the devise shall not vest absolutely in my said son until he attains the age of 21 years.'  Does this not mean that his son owns the property when he becomes of age?  I know there is a difference between devise and bequeath but in this instance, I'm really not sure what it all means.
In regards to her nieces, I think she carried out her late husband's wishes in that allowing her stepson to stay in the house for his life was justified that way.  Bar one, all his other children swore there was a valid will made and the other children never spoke to the stepmother again bar the one stepson from the 2nd marriage who lived with them at the property.  At the time they felt aggrieved by the stepmother saying that their father would definitely made a will but she insisted there wasn't one.  This very fact, and the fact I found a 1960 will he wrote tells me something was not right.  I just cannot believe she didn't know that she was executor and trustee of his will.

Regards
Catherine

11
The Common Room / Re: Meaning of jargon in will.
« on: Wednesday 30 March 16 11:34 BST (UK)  »
Thanks to all who have replied on this topic.

I will try to answer as many questions as possible.

The deceased married in 1958 to his 3rd wife, she is also named as executor as well as Trustee of his will so I am sure she would have known about the will when it was drawn up in 1960.  The property they lived in at time of marriage was the property the deceased bought on his own so I presume was his name only on the deeds at the time of his marriage to his 3rd wife.  I'm not sure but will try to find out who was on the deeds of the property they lived in when he died, which I am now told they only bought in Jan 1970, one year prior to his death.  He died in 1971.  I am not sure he would have put into joint names though, he was a canny fella I believe  :-\

I don't know whether this is relevant but his 1st marriage was in 1919, wife died in 1948, he married 2nd wife in 1950 and she died in 1956, this is the one whose son is still alive and living in the property since 1970. Then he married 3rd wife and she died in 1999. 

The will owner died in 1971.  He bought and sold several properties throughout his life and the last one as I said he bought in 1970.  I think this is possibly the reason his 3rd wife had to go to the solicitors and swear an oath or something of that nature to put the property in her name, I don't know how she did it all but I believe she was very good friends with the solicitor in the death county of her current address at that time but also saw a solicitor in another county in regard to making her own will then leaving the property to her 3 nieces who also live in or around that county.

The son of deceased recalled where this solicitor was to which he visited with his stepmother after his father died.  So I made a few phone calls (law society) and was given info which led me to the solicitor who had the will.  I made an apt to see this solicitor with the son of the deceased and it was him who provided me with the will and told me that as the property address was different on death to that of the will then the will became invalid on that point.  I have made notes that I intended to find out who the deeds belonged to at the time of death of the will owner but I can't find anything more on that matter in my notes, maybe I didn't find them.

The daughter of the deceased from his first marriage told her stepbrother many years back before her death that she remembered a different solicitors in another street of the city, but not the name of that solicitor but seems to recall her father made a will mid to late 60's which would I assume cancel out the one I have copy of made in 1960 and the one I can't find if it was made then.

So on the death of the 3rd wife, she has made out her will but with a different solicitor in different county.  After her death her 3 nieces and deceased brother and sister, they collected the stepson of said 3rd wife from his home and drove him to the solicitors in the other county, whereby he was seated and just had to listen to the will being read out of his stepmother.  He was asked to sign a document and was left a small amount of money but didn't read the document.  That was the end of it!  He was then driven back home.  The family then opened the garage door and took the deceased's car from the garage and took it with them.

The son gave me details of the solicitors he was taken to and so I rang them, they told me they had the deeds to the property held there, I asked for a copy of the will which was then sent to me.  I have just read her will again and it states not her nieces but her godchildren, but they were one and same, and it was her 2 nephews she appointed as her executors.

She states I give devise and bequeath my house at .... and the contents thereof to my stepson  ...  ...  for his life and thereafter to be sold and the proceeds to be divided equally between my godchildren  (3 names) but if any godchild dies etc etc (the norm).
I direct that none of the contents of my house be removed after my death.

So if she (the 3rd wife) stated that her deceased husband left no will and she went to the solicitors to have the house put into her name, then this was obviously fraud surely?  Her nephew apparently was a good friend of the solicitor where she was sworn on oath that she knew of no valid will.

Ok that's all I can think of at the moment, I'm still wracking my brains to try to find out about the deeds now but like one of you says, it may be too late now.

Thank you all
Catherine

12
The Common Room / Re: Meaning of jargon in will.
« on: Tuesday 29 March 16 20:46 BST (UK)  »
I hope everyone understands but I can't reply to all these messages as I am working at present but will answer all these queries and questions tomorrow and go into more depth once more.

Thank you to all those who have replied.  Hopefully I can fill in the gaps that are missing from the original post to make things a little clearer.

Til tomorrow.
Thanks

13
The Common Room / Meaning of jargon in will.
« on: Tuesday 29 March 16 17:47 BST (UK)  »
Hi
I wonder if anyone out there has any knowledge of the legal jargon in a will.  I obtained a will of a person who made same 11 years prior to dying in 1971.
He had been married 3 times, had 5 children to his 1st wife who died young, married the 2nd and had one son to her and she then died and then 4 years later married his 3rd wife.
His last son became ill in his teens and although he worked for approx. 25 years he had to give up because of ill health. His last son was approx 18 when his father died but  still lived with them. 
This man and his wife and son moved to a bigger house approx 7 years before he died so the property stated on the will is different to that of the property he actually died in.  All his other children were much older and married with families of their own.
This is part of the will:
I appoint my wife ......  .... to be the Executrix and Trustee of this my will and she also to be the guardian of my son ....   ..... during his minorit.  I direct her to pay all my just debts funeral and testamentary expenses.  I appoint my Trustee to be a Trustee for the purposes of the Settled Land Acts.  I Give and Devise to my Trustee my house and premises; ........ in the City of ...... for my son .... ..... and I declare that the Devise shall not vest absolutely in my said son until he attains the age of twenty one years.  If he shall pre-decease me or die under the age of twenty one years this Devise shall fall into and form part of my Residuary Estate.  I give my Trustee full power of sale and any money liable to investment which might accrue whether by way of income arising out of the said premises or capital representing proceeds of sale thereof and income thereon may be invested in or upon or applied in the purchase of any investment security or property of any kind, (whether producing income or not) approved by my Trustee, and may, pending investment be placed on Deposit or current acct at any Bank or with any company incorporated with limited liability.  I authorize my Trustee to apply any part of the presumptive or vested share of my said son in the said Trust property under this my will for his advancement in the world.

At this point he goes on to leave his other children their legacies of money.

Then:  As to all the rest residue and remainder of my property of every kind and description and wheresoever situated of or to which I may die seised or possessed or entitled to or over which I may have any power of appointment I give Devise and bequeath same to my wife ....   ..... absolutely.

Now, my question is this:  The wife dies about 20 years later and her stepson is still living with her, the son referred to in the will.  They are living in the property his father died in but not the property mentioned in the will.  The stepmother has made a will bequeathing the house and everything in it to her 3 nieces but that her stepson can live in the property until his death.

The testators son is still alive now and wishes to know legally where he stands in regard to the will of his father as he was of the understanding that after his stepmother died he would inherit the property, is this correct?  Does anyone have any legal knowledge on this at all?

Just to add to this, the wife of the deceased had to go to a solicitors to swear or something of that nature, told to me by the stepson as he went with her,  that there was no will left by her husband and yet I managed to find this one! She told all his children that their father had not made a will and they were told by the stepmother they could have just £? each, a very very small amount.

We did go to a solicitor for advice after finding this will but he claimed this only surviving son (the stepson of his wife who was to be looked after her in the will) has no claim or rights to the property he still lives in to this day.

Any help appreciated.
Many thanks

14
US Completed Requests / Mary E Blake Probate
« on: Tuesday 22 March 16 14:28 GMT (UK)  »
Hi
I wondered if anyone has any access to probate records from 1943 in Manhattan.

The above named died  17th Jan 1943, I don't have a last address for her but she died in Manhattan.  She was 63 years old and was born 17th March 1879 in Cork.  She is buried in Gate of Heaven cemetery.  Her parents were Edmund Blake and Mary O'Neil born and died in Ireland.  I have found Mary on the 1920 and the 1930 cns' working as an assistant sister to Head of Home for the Aged Little Sisters of the Poor which was in Brooklyn at that time.  I can't seem to find her after that on the 1940 cns but did find a Mary Blake as a patient in the Welfare Hospital, Welfare Island born 1879 age 61 but dont' know if this was her or not.  Mary never married.

I know Mary left a legacy at least to one sister Margaret Ann Reardon nee Blake, who was living in New South Wales Australia, and also possible Elizabeth Cole nee Blake who was also living in New York or around that area, I can't find Elizabeth Cole either after 1930 cns.  I know this to be fact as I have the probate record or Margaret Reardon who says she was left legacy by her sister
Mary E Blake living in New York, Margaret died 1 year later than Mary.  The sister Elizabeth Cole apparently died in 1965 but I can't find her death either, this is from other members of family confirming this.

Any help would be appreciated.
Many thanks in advance.
Catherine

15
Australia / Re: John Edward Blake
« on: Tuesday 22 March 16 09:40 GMT (UK)  »
How true on all counts!  ;D

16
Australia / Re: John Edward Blake
« on: Tuesday 22 March 16 08:44 GMT (UK)  »
So, back to Julia who at this stage in 1940 was about 71, Julia wanted more! Her legacy was £3000 from Elizabeth, also she had a house, I'm not sure how she got this house, she inherited all household goods of Elizabeth also.
The will stated that after all money and debts, legacies paid out etc, then all the residue was to be shared as follows:  Julia to get 50% of residue and 50% to be shared equally amongst her nephews and nieces of which there were approx 26.  Julia was the daughter of Elizabeth's half brother.
I don't think it states that Julia is included in this remainder of 50%, but Julia fought for her share also of the residue 50% to be shared amongst the nephews and nieces.  Greed knows no boundaries eh?

Elizabeth originally left a sum of £500 to 2 of Julia's brothers and £300 to another brother of Julia's.  Six months after writing up her will Elizabeth made a codicil to it stating that the £500 legacied to Charles, her nephew (Julia's brother) shall now be paid to Julia to be held by her in trust to invest the same in fixed deposit with the bank and to pay to Charles the interst thereon for his life and after his death the sum of £500 shall be held by Julia for her own use!!! WOW!!!  Julia certainly knew how to use her womanly charms I think.  I wonder what happened to the £500, it certainly didn't go to Charles when Julia died in 1953 as it doesn't mention Charles in her will and he didn't die til much much later.
So for now that is as much as I can put together on this, but there is still the matter of the 2 probates one month apart in 1974.  Have read very quickly on the will of Edward John, I think this is as you said JM, that this came to light after Edward died and his sisters inherited from it.  Edward was the grandson of John Galway Blake who died in 1880 and it would seem there was some kind of land or something not collected on back in 1880.  The estate left by Edward was not too bad in size and value was around £16000.  Something I didn't know was that Edward had 2 sisters! One was Theresa who died in 1983 and the other, the eldest child of Samuel (Julia's brother) and Matilda Battye, was Dorothy Matilda who married Mr Newquist in NSW and then moved to USA living in various places.  Dorothy only died in 2006!

I also found the sister Mary of Margaret and John Edward through the packets kindly obtained by Ros, I knew she had gone to USA from Cork but couldn't find her in USA, I did find a death for her though in 1943 (sister Margaret in NSW died in 1944) and she was living in some kind of welfare place, where I suppose people had to go if they had no money.  Mary would have been a legatee of Elizabeth also being her niece.  But Margaret states in her will date March 1944 that she inherited from her sister Mary E Blake who lived in USA. 

Ok thanks again to both Ros and JM for all your help and advice.

I will update this topic as and when I find out more info on the family.

Regards
Catherine

17
Australia / Re: John Edward Blake
« on: Tuesday 22 March 16 08:44 GMT (UK)  »
Good morning Ros and JM
Thank you Ros for all your help in obtaining all the info for me.  Thanks also to JM for all his advice on my dithering knowledge of probates etc.  The 'goodly and timely' was absolutely not possible in this particular case.  The case dragged on and on due to John Edward trying to buy The Elms over a period of nearly 4 years whereby it was then repossessed if that is the term to be used.  He paid £450 deposit to buy the property and land in 1936, he paid another £1600 as part payment around 1937/8 (still have to go through dates again) but couldn't raise the remainder of £2550 and so it was taken from him and sold at auction in 1941.  They retained the deposit from him to pay fees accumulated and believe me, there were such massive fees to pay between the solicitor and the PT and other bodies, mainly the solicitor involved though.  They gave him back £700 of the £1600 he had paid part payment, I don't know why, as the fees did not cost anything like that amount of £1350.  It states he lived in Windowie, I know that is where Elizabeth Marshall lived around 1932 so think this must be the house he lived in but isn't the house that he inherited from Elizabeth as it says he sold his property to raise the £2000 to buy the The Elms.  There were 5 lots of deeds attached to Elizabeth and still have no idea as yet where they all were.  Strangely, John Edward refers to his inheritance in this matter and says he can put that towards the payment of farm, the inheritance he mentions is £500.  That was the original amount in the will to be paid to him, but it was changed to £1000 and was duly signed off by Elizabeth.  Now I don't think that John Edward knew this as he wouldn't have referred to his legacy as £500 so I do wonder who was fooling who!
Julia the half cousin was extremely thrifty and wanted almost everything!  I also looked for any mention of a fire but found none, only referring to fire insurance payments.

There was a recompence left by Elizabeth to a Ralph Thompson for his hard work for last 13 years.  Unfortunately Ralph deceased 1 month before Elizabeth died.  Julia (I think she succeeded but will have to read again) wanted this overturned and for her to have the money of £500 instead of it going to his widow and retained her own solicitor in this and a couple other matters.
When The Elms was sold, all legatees had been informed, the ones in USA were apparently denied their legacy, I need to read more on this also.  I do wonder if Julia had a hand in this also. Although the legatees in Ireland were initially informed, (The brother of Elizabeth was written to after a lengthy conversation between solicitor and Elizabeth who was probably confused and named him), but he was actually 8 years older than Elizabeth so was long deceased.  Fortunately the letter was delivered and a son answered to the letter.  This son being the brother of John Edward Blake. There is no mention of a legacy to anyone in Ireland after this.  There was correspondence initially between a solicitor in Cork and the solicitor in NSW in this regard but nothing came of it.   I was told this only 2 weeks ago that there was a solicitor named Hegarty in Cork who was disbarred for fiddling many accounts from overseas legacies etc.  Lo and behold, the solicitor taken by the son William Blake in Cork was this same Hegarty who is mentioned in the correspondence of the probate packet.

ok have to post another one as it exceeds limit of characters.

Catherine

18
Australia / Re: John Edward Blake
« on: Sunday 20 March 16 10:14 GMT (UK)  »
Hi again All,
In answer to your question Ros, yes, I do have the will of Elizabeth Marshall nee Blake but not the full packet, it was written up on 4/2/1926.  I also have her death cert, she died 30th June 1935 of bronchitis and senility aged (it states her age as 98 but she was really 94) she was born August 1841 and bpt 10/8/1841.  She had no children.  That would be great if you photograph the full packet Ros thank you so much for offering to do this for me, that's great news, whenever you're able to get there, Monday sounds great though.

This is what I can't find out, it states in the will that she is living with her nephew John Blake, and that would have been at The Elms in 1926 I presume, but states in the will that she has already transferred a farm to John worth £4000, so I don't know if it was the Elms that she transferred or another property.  Apparently she bought a small holding next to Gilmore Creek when she was a little older.  I can find John and his relative Julia on the 1943 electoral roll together in Gilmore, but I can't find John Edward after this, but, I found Julia living in 1949 living in Flower Hill with her brother James and nephew Edward John, this is definitely not John Edward by mistake. John Edward didn't die til 1951 so where was he? I believe he liked a drink, I don't know how true this is, but this is family heresay, and that he set fire to his house and went to live with Julia but I can't find any information on that incident, and as far as I can see throughout all those years from around 1930 John Edward is living with Julia in Gilmore.  On the 1930 Elizabeth Marshall is living in Windowie Gilmore but can't find Elizabeth living in just Gilmore with John and Julia prior to 1930!  This gets more and more intriguing.  There is a mention of a property in the will which says it is to be sold by the Trustees and divided amongst various family members etc, I am not sure if this would have been The Elms or not though, which I know was sold in 1941 but have no details of the sale.

Thanks JM, so why would a will need to be proved at all?? If after a number of years maybe the executors have died or maybe they dont' know if the will is the last will made so there is some confusion as to whether it is a valid will, would these be valid reasons to have it proven or maybe someone is contesting the will I presume?

Yes, I will definitely post an update as and when more info is obtained cupoflife.
Regards and thanks to all once more.
Catherine

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