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Messages - davidbappleton

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28
Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms / Re: Assistance with two Family crests
« on: Tuesday 27 June 17 20:11 BST (UK)  »
The second son would normally difference the arms with a crescent.

David

29
Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms / Re: Assistance with two Family crests
« on: Thursday 15 June 17 21:30 BST (UK)  »
I dare say all that is true for most of us!

David

30
Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms / Re: Assistance with two Family crests
« on: Thursday 15 June 17 19:40 BST (UK)  »
There is only one crest here, "A lion sejant argent sustaining an oval shield, per fess or and gules charged with a bend ermine."

The shield has the arms of Mathew Pennefather (Per fess or and gules a bend ermine) on the dexter half of the shield, impaled with the arms of his wife (or more strictly speaking, his wife's father) on the sinister half of the shield. Those arms are not entirely clear here, since the image doesn't show hatching or the details of the lion very well, but look to be something like "(Azure or gules) a lion rampant crowned(?) (and possible holding something in its dexter forpaw) (probably or)."

If this Mathew Pennefather is the Matthew Pennefather (1784-1858), son of Richard and Anna (Jacob) Pennefather, his wife was Anna, daughter of Daniel O'Connor of Ballybricken, co. Cork. Some of the O'Connor families of Ireland (mostly in County Kerry that I can see) bear the arms "Vert a lion rampant double-queued and crowned or." I can't tell from the scan; does the lion here have two tails?

In any case, this form of impalement (of two coats of arms on a single shield) is a common way for a husband and wife to display their combined arms during their lifetimes. Their children would not inherit the wife's arms.

I hop that this information is helpful to you.

David

31
Family History Beginners Board / Re: Mystery crest tureen
« on: Sunday 28 May 17 18:06 BST (UK)  »
While my copy of Fairbairn's Crests shows a number of stag's heads erased and collared, it doesn't give any with the three crescents.

Sorry!

David

32
Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms / Re: Assistance with two Family crests
« on: Wednesday 24 May 17 22:20 BST (UK)  »
I think John Brooke-Little, former Norroy and Ulster King of Arms, said it best in the introduction to his book An Heraldic Alphabet:

"You can study heraldry until you are azure ... in the face but inevitably discover, from time to time, that you really are quite vert.... I have found this over and over again but, never forget, herein lies the fun and if heraldry ever ceases to be fun- chuck it."

I have been studying and researching heraldry for over 35 years, and continue to learn something new about it on a fairly regular basis.

But, yeah, sometimes a lie down in a dark room seems like a very pleasant idea!

David

33
Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms / Re: Assistance with two Family crests
« on: Wednesday 24 May 17 21:26 BST (UK)  »
Except for the mullet, the mark of a third son, however, the two coats are identical, that is to say, they would each be blazoned as Per fess or and gules a bend ermine and they share the same crest. All we really can say is that the monochrome coat ("tricked," since it tells us that the tinctures are "Or" and "Gu") was borne by a third son, and it may or may not have been the result of a specific grant of arms; very frequently younger sons simply used their father's arms with a mark of difference without going to the heralds to receive a grant of their own. Indeed, the text of many grants of arms state that they may be borne by the grantee "and by his descendants with due and proper difference and according to the Laws of Arms," so no additional grants needed to be made to any of these descendants.

So I doubt that there were three different grants of arms here. It's possible that there were two, one Irish and one English; but it's also entirely possible that there was but one, and the different branches of the family on both sides of the Irish Sea used the same arms.

David

34
Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms / Re: Assistance with two Family crests
« on: Wednesday 24 May 17 18:44 BST (UK)  »
Yes, that's pretty much it. The unchanged arms go down from the original grantee through a line of eldest sons. Everyone else should use a differenced version.

Again, that's the theory; in practice, we quite often seen the younger sons and their descendants also using the undifferenced arms.

David

35
Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms / Re: Assistance with two Family crests
« on: Wednesday 24 May 17 17:18 BST (UK)  »
>Were the rules the same in Ireland when under English rule ? I need to fully understand
>it at the granular level and hence the many and detailed questions.

I think it is possible to spend a lifetime of study and not "fully" understand heraldry and its rules, much less how closely the rules are followed - or not - in practice.

In theory, yes, the rules in Ireland under English rule were the same as in England. In practice, however, it was primarily this way only in the areas under firm English control (e.g., Dublin). Out in the hinterland, English heraldic law was not so strictly followed.

>The coat of arms in Ireland was conferred to an individual not a family (Yes or No).

Yes.

>The individuals father and his grandfather were entitled to use the coat of arms(Yes or No)

Not unless it said so in the grant of arms. As one famous example, the arms that William Shakespeare bore were actually granted (posthumously) to his father John, though the application was made by William (who then, of course, inherited the arms).

>Were all the direct descendants of his grandfather allowed to use the same coat of arms
>(Yes or No)

Only if the arms were granted to the grandfather, and then only to direct male-line descendants.

>Were all the direct descendants of his grandfather allowed to use the same coat
>of arms (Yes or No)

Again, only if the grant was made (even posthumously) to the grandfather. And in that case, in theory, not the "same" arms. Only the eldest son (and his eldest son, and so on) ended up bearing the undifferenced arms. All of the other sons (and all of their sons) would bear the arms with a difference. In the English system of differencing, this usually involved adding a small charge - a crescent, a mullet, an annulet, etc. - to the arms.

That's the theory. In practice, the system of English differencing is cumbersome (imagine the fourth son of a fifth son of a second son, who would bear the basic arms with a small crescent charged with an annulet charged with a martlet; identification rapidly becomes an impossibility) and frequently ignored.

>Were only the direct descendants down from the individual to use the same coat
>of arms (Yes or No)

If the grant was made to him, yes, his male-line direct descendants would be able to use the same coat. Again, with the proviso that under English heraldic law, only the eldest son would inherit the undifferenced arms. The younger sons (and their male descendants) would be expected to (though often didn't) bear the arms with a difference.

>The individual's siblings were  entitled to use his coat of arms (Yes or No)

No. If the grant was made to the individual, his brothers would have no entitlement to the arms.

>The individuals's siblings children, grandchildren were entitled to use his coat of
>arms (Yes or No)

No. If the grant was made to the individual, his nephews and his nephews' children, would have no entitlement to the arms.

I hope that all of this information is helpful to you. It's a complex field, and what occurs in practice does not always follow the prescriptions of the heralds. To borrow a line from the movie Pirates of the Caribbean, “The code is more what you’d call ‘guidelines’ than actual rules.”

David

36
Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms / Re: Assistance with two Family crests
« on: Tuesday 23 May 17 19:46 BST (UK)  »
"Armiger" is a term related to heraldry; a person who has a coat of arms is called an armiger.

I am not familiar with the term "chiliarcha"; it is not an heraldic term.

According to Wikipedia, "Chiliarch (from Greek: χιλίαρχος, chiliarchos, sometimes χιλιάρχης, chiliarches or χειλίαρχος, cheiliarchos; meaning "commander of a thousand" and occasionally rendered "thousandman" in English) is a military rank dating back to Antiquity."

David

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