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Messages - Duodecem

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1
Hello goldie, yes I did see the reference to Ralph Tann, who was John Tann's grandfather. I did wonder whether he lost his money and the mill because he couldn't repay the loan.
Ralph's eldest son, John (1704-1751), was the father of the John Tann(1735-?, also the eldest son)who was the pauper subject of the various settlement and removal orders.
Presumably if there had been a mill, both Johns, son and grandson respectively, would have inherited it.
 As for Anne Tann, nee Riseborough, that's even more puzzling. Either there was more than one Anne Tann or she led a sad and chaotic life.
In chronological order:
Ann Tann, disorderly
NCR 20e/18 page 332 Item 17 Jul 1765
Ann Tann, pauper
NCR 20e/18 page 358 Item 23 Oct 1776
Ann Tann, vagrant
NCR 20e/18 page 358 Item 23 Dec 1776
Ann Tann, vagrant
 NCR 20e/18 page 360 Item 10 Jun 1782
Ann Tann, vagrant
NCR 20e/18 page 361 Item 27 Jun 1785
Ann Tann, vagrant
 NCR 20e/18 page 362 Item 6 Apr 1786
Ann Tann, vagrant
NCR 20e/18 page 291 Item 8 Aug 1787

Before dying in 1788 at the age of 57.



2
Thank you amongd, I hadn't noticed that Anne was a widow, so presumably John died between 1776 and 1788.
I'm still a bit confused. 
John Tann was married on 24th July 1758,  registered as a pauper on 28 Jul 1758, and again on 11th December 1758. Here are the links: https://nrocatalogue.norfolk.gov.uk/index.php/john-tann-pauper-2
https://nrocatalogue.norfolk.gov.uk/index.php/john-tann-pauper-3
and the settlement certificate was 15th December 1758.
https://nrocatalogue.norfolk.gov.uk/index.php/settlement-certificate-john-tann-ann-his-wife-and-elizabeth-their-daughter

So, if he was a pauper, on 11th December, it seems surprising he was granted a settlement certificate on 15th December. Maybe I misunderstand the system but I thought someone was only granted a settlement certificate outside their home parish if they had work and could support themselves.
Could this be achieved in 4 days?

3
Norfolk / Help please with untangling the Settlement and Removal records for John Tann.
« on: Wednesday 14 September 22 10:56 BST (UK)  »
The John Tann in question was baptised in New Buckenham in 1735, the eldest son of John Tann and Jane Howlby and grandson of Ralph Tann, a miller, so an established family in the village.
On 24th July 1758 John married Anne Risebrooke of Norwich in St Peter of Mancroft, Norwich and in October that year they baptised a daughter Elizabeth, another daughter Martha was baptised in 1760 and a son, John in 1766.
I was browsing the Norfolk Record Office Online Catalogue and found the following records which seem to refer to John and his family:-
1) Reference codeNCR 20e/18 page 329
Title John Tann, pauper Date(s) 28 Jul 1758 (Creation)

2) Reference cod eNCR 20e/18 page 329
Title John Tann, pauper Date(s  )11 Dec 1758 (Creation)
Both have  New Buckenham as the parish of settlement.


3) Reference codePD 540/112/61
Title Settlement certificate: John Tann , Ann his wife and Elizabeth their daughter
Date(s) 15 Dec 1758 (Creation)
Certifying Parish: New Buckenham. Parish of residence: St Peter Mancroft, Norwich.


And finally-
4) Reference code PD 540/114/19
Title Removal order: Ann Tann, wife of John Tann, and John their son
Date(s)  23 Oct 1776 (Creation)
Scope and content Removed from St Paul, Norwich to New Buckenham.


I haven't found a record for the death of  John Tann.
Anne died in New Buckenham in 1788, her son John married, lived and died in Old Buckenham, an agricultural labourer according to the 1841 census.

I'm a bit confused by these records. Presumably John was a pauper but allowed to settle in Norwich, then for some reason his wife and 10 year old son were removed to New Buckenham. I haven't found a removal order for John, but I presume he was alive in 1776, since Anne is described as his wife not his widow.
 If anyone can help shed any further light on this and tell me whether my presumptions are correct of not, I would be very grateful.

 








4
Norfolk Lookup Requests / Re: Birth lookup please John Eggett
« on: Monday 06 December 21 10:36 GMT (UK)  »
It's so long since I posted my original request that I'm not sure whether anyone will be interested in the final outcome, but in case anyone is, I thought I would post my eventual findings.

Eyedoc's helpful reply concerning the apprenticeship of John Eggett, son of Benjamin was a huge clue!
Ancestry has recently included some records from Gorleston among their "Norfolk, England, Church of England Baptism, Marriages, and Burials, 1535-1812". From these I was able to find that John Eggett was baptised  7th Mar 1735 • Gorleston with Southdown, Suffolk, England. He was the son of John (as we suspected) and Elizabeth Eggett. I haven't found their marriage record or Elizabeth's maiden name. They had one other child that I have found, Margaret, baptised 1733.
John died in 1744 and Elizabeth (Elizabeth Eggett, widow.) in 1750.

John senior-he of the very helpful apprenticeship record- was baptised 3th Oct 1703 • Gorleston-on-Sea, Suffolk, England.
He was the son of Benjamin Eggett and Margaret Stone.
Benjamin and Margaret married in Gorleston in August, 1699. They had 6 children in 21 years:-Richard, John, Margaret, Benjamin who died in infancy, another Benjamin, and finally, Rachel.

I don't have any birth records for Benjamin or Margaret, but Margaret died in 1727, described as "Margaret Eggett, wife of Benjamin" and Benjamin died in 1728.

9 years of searching and I finally found him! Many thanks to everyone who made helpful suggestions. :D


5
Surrey / Re: Sophia Holford born about 1822 in Addlestone or Chertsey- help please.
« on: Wednesday 11 November 20 13:27 GMT (UK)  »
Our suspicions are confirmed! It would explain why none of John and Sophia's sons were named James after John's father.

I checked the GRO records for Rosina, which gave her mother's surname as Rolfe, which confirms your earlier findings. It really is a remarkable error on a marriage record. The names don't sound alike in the slightest. Perhaps Sophia sneezed as she gave her surname!

On the subject of Robert Rolfe- he gave his birthplace as "Thorpe, Berkshire" on the 1851 census. There isn't a Thorpe in Berkshire. The most likely place was Thorpe, near Egham, Surrey, 2 miles from Addlestone near Chertsey where Sophia was born.
Free Reg has the following baptism:
15 Aug 1784 • Egham,Surrey,England

15 Aug 1784 Person forename Robert Person sex M Father forename Robert Mother forename Ann Father surname ROLPH Mother surname ROLPH Notes Born 6 Aug.

In 1783 in Egham, Robert Rolf married Ann Tarant.

As I mentioned before there are other Rolf/e records in Chertsey and Egham, so it seems likely that was where Robert Rolfe was born and where he lived until Sophia's birth in 1822.


6
Thank you all for your replies.
I suppose he was so specific because worked for a firm that just made the serving trays rather than other silverware.
They look beautiful items in the link you posted Mike.
Problem solved! :) Jan

7
Norfolk / Re: Norfolk ... coal miners?!
« on: Monday 19 October 20 16:34 BST (UK)  »
Hi BugBear,
It seems to have been fairly common for farm labourers to have made the move north for work during the C19th, and it was probably resonably easy for families from East Anglia to travel up the coast.
There are several posts on this topic which may interest you.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=481634.36

And then I found some of my own ancestors had moved North East from Norfolk,so I started a couple of posts:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=650066.msg4965333#msg4965333
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=649914.msg4963912#msg4963912

I hope the links work!
Jan

8
My ancestor, Benjamin Meadows, lived in Birmingham and married in 1770. On the record of banns for St Martin's church, his occupation is clearly written as  "Waiter Maker."
It seems very specific but gives no indication of what his trade might have been.
I wondered whether he could have been a silversmith making serving dishes, or a cabinet maker making serving stands.
I wonder whether anyone has heard of a waiter maker and has any idea of what his trade was?

9
I've finally found the famliy in 1851-Ancestry had mistrancribed the surname as Robbe. I checked the original online, it's unclear and Robert's place of birth is hard to read-it could be Bucks or Berks. Ancestry has Thorpe Berks. (Thorpe in Surrey is near Chertsey which would be lovely!)
If James was the son of a brother of Sophia, wouldn't he be described as nephew, not lodger in 1871?
Whereas she may not have owned her relationship to her illegitimate son. A birth certificate for James seems the way forward.

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