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Messages - FROGSMILE

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Armed Forces / Re: Enoch Farr d 1851 India
« on: Wednesday 31 March 21 16:33 BST (UK)  »
FIBISwiki is an extraordinary resource for anything to do with families in British India, including of course the military, but itís multilayered and easy to miss things.  Just in case then, here is the link to the details of the HEIC regiments (there is lots to discover):

Armed Forces / Re: Francis Joseph Moore - Uniform?
« on: Wednesday 24 March 21 10:45 GMT (UK)  »
Thank you Frogsmile. He was deifnitely in the Welsh Fusiliers in WW1 as I have his records. He moved to London in the 1920s. He was born in 1885, so I assumed he'd be too old for WW2 or any other military service after WW1. Could it be the Corps of Commissionaires? I just found some details about that. They have an archive, so asked if they have any records of him.



No itís definitely not Corps of Commissionaires.  Although they did have a similar shoulder cord at that time, the jacket had just one chest pocket and a ID serial number on the collar.  There was invariably also a black leather shoulder belt with badge when on duty.  For a WW1 veteran See:

Some pre war Yeomanry were converted to RWF battalions during WW1.  Might that fit?  The plain buttons are a big clue and were only worn by those styled as Hussars, who also used the twisted shoulder cord, whereas Corps of Commissionaires used a special button of their own.

Armed Forces / Re: 70TH foot - James Oakley/William Oakley
« on: Wednesday 24 March 21 09:23 GMT (UK)  »
her 1st Husband was
Private Edward Cilfford - married 17 Feb 1859
RawalPindi, Bengal, India - he was  born 1836 died 6th April 1860
aged 24 of Smallpox

Sarah remarried on 24th Sept 1860 - William Oakley (Sergeant 70th Band) in Allahabad, Bengal, India
They had I think there 1st child in New Zealand in 1864 (Sarah Matilda)
Sarahs Father William Linsell was also a Sergeant in the 70th foot  in India (he's wife/Sarahs mother had another 4 children in India  all died, and she dies 3 months after the 4th) he remarries Mary Farley (her 2nd or3rd marriage) seems they remarried fairly quickly after losing a spouse

Hello Jeff, thanks for the extra information, all very interesting.  So Sarah must have been 13 when first married.  Life was short then so attitudes were very different and of course usually heavily governed by a Christian denomination of one kind or another.  Soldierís widows did indeed remarry quickly, not least in order to remain on the regimental strength, which brought with it a half ration of government issue vittles, with a quarter ration for each child.  It also ensured quarters and a continuation of the only life understood, especially if born into the regiment, as she was. 
The Band Sergeant was quite a premier position so she very literally went up in her little world by marrying him, and her father would also have been pleased to see her get such an assured degree of security.  The Band Sergeant was one of the battalionís staff sergeants and head of the band (in the late 1860s the position became band sergeant major), with full responsibility for the battalionís music.  At that time the band wore white uniforms, but with the facing colour of their regiment (black for the 70th) for collars and cuffs, whereas the rest of the regiment were in scarlet.  Sarah would have assisted her husband with keeping his uniform clean, which required a lot of effort given its colour.  I enclose some images to give you an idea how he would have appeared.  In 1855 the regimental upper garment for full dress changed from a coatee with tails to a tunic with a straight skirt, although the colour differential I mentioned remained the same. For day to day undress simpler uniforms were worn, often procured locally and in hot climates use was made of linens and cottons to provide more practical clothing.  In India these were often made up by native tailors called Ďdurzisí to whatever design was prescribed by the regiment.  Although lightweight, in a shirt like material, they were often made dressier with decorative lines of contrasting regimental lace and shiny brass buttons.

Armed Forces / Re: Mallow County Cork Military Barracks 1860's
« on: Wednesday 24 March 21 09:10 GMT (UK)  »
Thanks Frogsmile. Got that, was just sorting out my error in saying he was a pensioner in the 1860's.

Great, Iím glad to help.  I know it can be confusing.  The term staff sergeant is one that often causes misunderstanding due to its double usage.

Armed Forces / Re: Mallow County Cork Military Barracks 1860's
« on: Wednesday 24 March 21 08:17 GMT (UK)  »
Thanks heywood. Yes that is him. My bad. It was his death cert that said pensioner. For Elizabeth in 1866 and Henry 1868 Birth Reg it is Staff Sgt...

That reference to ĎStaff Sergeantí is a collective term like saying one of a group of foremen, it isnít his rank.  Infantry militia simply didnít have the individual rank staff sergeant.  Not at any time.  The group staff sergeants within an infantry battalion comprised, e.g. musketry instructors, pay master sergeants, quarter-master-sergeants, armourer sergeants, and the sergeant major of battalion, to mention just the more senior. The militiamen themselves were civilians, but the staff sergeants were professionals on attachment after regular service.

Armed Forces / Re: Mallow County Cork Military Barracks 1860's
« on: Wednesday 24 March 21 00:26 GMT (UK)  »
There is a Fold3 document (pay site)
Henry Buckley born abt 1836 Mallow
??Cork Militia - Pension date 1880

That fits with the North Cork Rifles mentioned in the opening post and so matches his unit when reaching retirement.

Armed Forces / Re: Mallow County Cork Military Barracks 1860's
« on: Tuesday 23 March 21 23:40 GMT (UK)  »
Thanks Frogsmile. I believe he was probably a local. I failed to mention on one of the bapts occupation was Militia Pensione.

That suggests to me that he must have been a professional soldier then, but who happened to finish his service with the militia.  I say this because an actual militiaman was a civilian and only a part-time, aka Ďauxiliaryí soldier.  After an initial 6-months full time training they then had only to complete 3-weeks training each year in return for being ready for call out when needed.  Ergo their Ďoccupationí on any pension would be shopkeeper, or farmer, Miller, etc.  Only a soldier would be correct to list himself as a pensioner militiaman.  Indeed only a soldier could earn such a pension anyway.  Civilian militiamen had no entitlement to pension, regardless of length of service.  Your man must have earlier service as a regular, itís just a question of tracking down his original regiment.

Armed Forces / Re: Francis Joseph Moore - Uniform?
« on: Tuesday 23 March 21 18:16 GMT (UK)  »
Can anybody help me identify this uniform. I thought it look like Police, but he wasn't in the Police force and he was in WW1 in Welsh Fusiliers, but this looks much later than WW1. He is much older than he would have been in WW1. Any help would be great. He was in London during WW2. He moved from Wales in the 1920s.


I believe that heís a British cavalryman of a Hussar Regiment and wearing a blue patrol uniform that for light cavalry regiments (Hussars and Lancers) had the twisted shoulder cords that you see.  Although worn by some units, it wasnít a standard, across the board army practice to wear collar badges with that particular uniform (Blue Patrols) until after 1924, when the wearing of collar badges became universal for all regiments.  Plain buttons were a special feature of Hussar regiments and these were either shaped as balls (ball buttons), or convex, depending upon the type of uniform (full dress or undress, etc.) being worn. 

The special plain buttons on blue patrol uniforms were also worn by Yeomanry of the Territorial, part-time soldiers (in regiments that styled themselves as Hussars), as well as the Hussars of the regular army.  The infantry also wore blue patrol uniforms, as also did the artillery, engineers and army service corps, some favoured shoulder straps and some preferred the twisted cords seen here.

Armed Forces / Re: Identify this uniform
« on: Tuesday 23 March 21 17:24 GMT (UK)  »
The facings (colour of collar) are either, blue (statistically most likely) or black, and itís a silver laced regiment.  With those features it would be possible to narrow the regimentís down if they are shown alongside each of the Hollandís listed?

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