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Messages - DianaCanada

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England / Child on 1911 census, but died in 1909?!
« on: Friday 23 October 09 14:39 BST (UK)  »
The registrations for Births show only one William Jeff born in England in 1908/1909.  That was a William registered in the June quarter in 1909, in Staines district, Middlesex.  The deaths show, in Sep 1909, a William Jeff, age 0, in Staines.
However, on the 1911 census, Thomas Oliver Jeff and his wife Rose Alice (Sutton) are shown in Sunnyside Cottages, Harlington, Middlesex (Staines district) with 4 young children, including William age 2. 
The Jeff family is not connected previously with Middlesex, and I believe Thomas was the only adult male in the Staines area in that time period.  He had no brothers with the surname Jeff.
I am puzzled about this listing.  Did people sometimes list their dead children?!  I have not come across this in many years of research.  Did the enumerators have to see the family members, or just take the family's word for it?

One Name Studies: H to M / Re: Jelfs.
« on: Friday 23 October 09 14:01 BST (UK)  »
I have a Jeff (surname) connection that originated in Ludlow, Shropshire.  Think there might be a connection? (am not sure if S. is considered West Midlands).

England / Re: Never Give Up!
« on: Thursday 22 October 09 18:01 BST (UK)  »
I've done a quick perusal through the Free BMD and found an Emily Jeff born and died in the Sep Q 1877 (Lambeth) who fits between two girls in the family very neatly.  I might just purchase one of those certs. one day!
Thanks for the help, I didn't realize that the # of children only applied to the current relationship.   What about widows listed with children?

England / Re: Never Give Up!
« on: Thursday 22 October 09 17:52 BST (UK)  »
This was the situation - my great grandfather was born illegitimately to Mary in 1862.  He never appears with her in any census - lived with his grandparents in Warbleton, Sussex.  His father is unknown.  In 1868 Mary had Sarah (Oliver) christened in Warbleton.  In the 1871 census both William and Sarah are with their grandparents there.  In 1881 Sarah is with Mary, Thomas Jeff, and 4 children with the surname Jeff.  Sarah also is listed as a Jeff, dau. of Thomas.  The next 2 kids have the middle name of Oliver, the next 2 don't, and the last 2 born after the census don't carry it either.
So we are up to 8 kids - one who most likely isn't a Jeff genetically (William), one who might be (Sarah), and 6 who are identified as Jeff and always lived with Thomas and Mary.
So it is possible William is left out of the equation in 1901, simply because he isn't Thomas's child?  So perhaps, yes, Mary had a 9th child who was Thomas's.  One of those who was born between censuses and died before the next one.

England / Never Give Up!
« on: Thursday 22 October 09 13:26 BST (UK)  »
I have been checking and rechecking the Free BMD site online for a number of years.  I also manually went through the microfiche for Deaths up to 1933.
I was looking for the death of my great great grandmother, Mary Message Oliver Jeff.  My last check on BMD listed a Mary M Jeff, age 91. dying in Glamorgan in March Q 1934.  The age matched and the unusual name matched, although Wales mystified me.  Mary was born n Sussex and spent most of her adult life in Lambeth, London, last spotted in the 1911 census.
I quit at 1933 because she would have been 90 at that point and I didn't think she would have lived beyond that.  I thought she might have emigrated with one of her children, 3 of whom left England.
It did indeed turn out to be my Mary, and the informant was her daughter Sarah Knight(whom I had thought dead before 1901). I had not been able to find Sarah after 1891 - she was listed on the censuses in 1871 and 1881 as a Jeff, but actually was illegiitmate and christened as an Oliver.  Apparently she married as an Oliver too.  Sarah also gave the wrong bp on the 1901 and 1911 censuses.
My newest mystery is - why did Mary list 8 children, 7 living, on the 1911 census?  All 8 children are accounted for and still alive.  Naturally, I thought it was Sarah who died.
My other problem with Mary M. Oliver Jeff is that I have never found a marriage for her to Thomas Jeff.  I do know her parents, but I would like to find that elusive marriage!

Sussex Lookup Requests / Re: 1841 census - Benjamin Carley?
« on: Saturday 17 October 09 15:50 BST (UK)  »
Kerry, thanks for this! Looks like Jesse fathered a total of 17 children - with some duplication of names in the two different marriages - may or may not mean the first of those names died.
I've given James to Eliza, as he is born possibly after they married, according to his age on the 1851. 

I have been following the trail of Jesse's sister Ann, the youngest, b. ca 1788.  She might be the Ann who married David Griffiths in Rye (IGI).  They ended up in Liverpool. 

Sussex Lookup Requests / Re: 1841 census - Benjuamin Carley?
« on: Friday 16 October 09 18:43 BST (UK)  »
I have the same marriages as you do, for Jesse and Sarah and then Eliza - and Thomas to Harriet.  I have only got the children from Jesse's second marr. so will be working on the first lot.

I believe Benjamin Carly Sr. sponsered his son into the shoemaking world, so Jr. perhaps dropped Oliver as a thank you, or thought it was his due.  Stephen, on the other had, had no recourse but to join the army, and may have been the "less loved" son.  It is interesting that he gave his first born the middle name of Message, his stepfather's name.  (Mary Message Oliver, my great-great grandmother).

Sussex Lookup Requests / Re: 1841 census - Benjuamin Carley?
« on: Friday 16 October 09 15:35 BST (UK)  »
Kerry, as you probably know I am a descendant of Benjamin's full, but alas, also illegitimate brother, Stephen Carly Oliver.
For whatever reason, Benjamin dropped the Oliver and Stephen kept it.  Stephen does list Benjamin Sr. on his marriage certif. (thankfully he married later in life after spending over 20 yrs. in the army) as his father. 
I am currently doing some work on the Oliver family.  Ben. and Stephen's uncles Thomas and Jesse of Warbleton both married late in life.  Wondering if you have found any earlier marriages?

Shropshire / Re: Surname Jeff, Ludlow
« on: Thursday 15 October 09 13:18 BST (UK)  »
Yes, I do already have it - have traced Thomas Jeff and Mary Message Oliver's children a a couple of generations.  Haven't found their marriage yet, and have thoroughly checked.  It looks like he was married before but that wife died.  Possibly  marriage to Mary just not indexed, as suddenly children born stop being given the second name Oliver.  One of those situations that keeps it all interesting : ).

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