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Messages - maddys52

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4069
Cumberland / Re: A Wedding photo family Conundrum.
« on: Friday 12 March 21 02:14 GMT (UK)  »
Sarah Ann looks a pretty formidable woman in any case. Poor William looks like he is struggling to perch on the last couple of inches of the bench.  ;D

 ;D ;D

Sarah's birthplace is Stanwix, Carlisle in the 1891 census.  Could this possibly be her with her mother and siblings in 1871.  Transcribed as Tepping and Stanwix as Stanwise

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5B1-FLK



Yes, that's another possibility. Transcribed as LEPPING on Ancestry.  ::)  So many possibilities and name variants, so many unmarried parents!  Very interesting problem.

I was wondering if it might be an idea to start a new thread just looking for a marriage of William TURNBULL and Sarah Anne TIFFIN/TIPPNG/etc? , with a link to this thread. Some fresh eyes may have some fresh ideas.  ;)

4070
Lancashire / Re: 1841 census Clowes Buildings, Hunt's Bank, Manchester
« on: Friday 12 March 21 01:50 GMT (UK)  »
The way the image reads is:

Tho Brotherton      29     Porter         yes
Mary (do)              30    Wife              no
Richd (do)             21   Railway Guard     yes
Margt  (do)           12                      yes
[new page]
Martha (do)          5     nothing       yes
James  (do)         30    Hatter         yes
Elizth(do)             27                       yes
Reuben (do)      6months             yes

4071
Cumberland / Re: A Wedding photo family Conundrum.
« on: Thursday 11 March 21 03:17 GMT (UK)  »
Both fit quite well but I lack parents, an 1871 census for her and especially the elusive marriage to William Turnbull which has always been a big objective and a puzzling omission.


A possibility:

In 1871 in Botchergate
Joseph TIPPNG    50   
Elizabeth               39
Sarah                    7
Hannah                  5
Alice                      2
RG10/5217 pg49

Note that the family next door is Henry and Hannah (?) LOWTHER - a coincidence with the name of William's brother?  :-\

4072
Lancashire / Re: 1841 census Clowes Buildings, Hunt's Bank, Manchester
« on: Thursday 11 March 21 02:47 GMT (UK)  »
In a history of Manchester published in the Hereford Journal on Wednesday,  Jan. 17, 1849, it mentions the Clowes Building:

"... The connection between the lords of Garnston (?) [sic] and Manchester did not close here; for as numerous monuments in the interesting church of Weobley show to this day, these Peploes, mindful of early associations, intermarried with the family of Clowes, of Hunts Bank, Manchester. The last representatives of this ancient family were co-heiresses, maiden ladies, and they died probably about twenty years ago. The paternal mansion was a noble structure of the era of Charles the Second. It remained in all its pristine grandeur until a comparatively recent period, when it was converted into offices in connection with the Manchester and Leeds Railway, and finally it was razed to give place to the present Manchester railway station, which occupies the site. ..."

4073
Lancashire / Re: 1841 census Clowes Buildings, Hunt's Bank, Manchester
« on: Thursday 11 March 21 02:08 GMT (UK)  »
This map from 1845, though it doesn't show Hunts Bank, shows many buildings in the area, not just the Workhouse.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102344087
(near Victoria Station/Long Millgate/Todd Sts - in the centre of the map near "COLLEGIATE")
As there are a number of advertisements in the 1840s about shares in the Manchester and Leeds Railway which have the contact address as "Clowes Buildings Hunts Bank", I would think it was a mixture of business and residential premises.

The description of the Enumeration District in the 1841 census you have is " ... along the right hand side of York Street to Long Millgate - from thence along the right hand side of Long Millgate to the Apple Market - from thence along the right hand side of the Apple Market to the river Irwell - from thence along the river Irwell to the Boundary of the township of Manchester and from thence along the said boundary to York Street aforesaid."

The next street on the census after your Clowes Buildings is Ducie St (which meets York St) which you can see on the map above.

4074
Cumberland / Re: A Wedding photo family Conundrum.
« on: Wednesday 10 March 21 09:43 GMT (UK)  »
Ah yes, I see them now  :D

It is a puzzle - why is John James with the SMITHs? Possibly Janet's 2nd marriage? Possibly related to William's father (as mother Jane remained unmarried, it would be interesting to see who William names as father on his marriage - if you ever find it!) I don't know, a few possibilities. It's my bed time now, will have another look at this interesting family hopefully tomorrow!

4075
Cumberland / Re: A Wedding photo family Conundrum.
« on: Wednesday 10 March 21 09:26 GMT (UK)  »
If this is the correct family, here are the census details for the TURNBULL's.

1861 at Botcherby
William TURNBULL   66    Brampton   (labourer)
Margaret                    73
James (son)               31
Margaret (dau)           36
Jane (dau)                  29
Mary Jane (gr dau)      8  (I think Dau Margaret's child)
Margaret (gr dau)        6   (I think Dau Margaret's child)
Fanny JOHNSTONE (gr dau)  3
William TURNBULL  (gr son)  3  (Dau Jane's child)
John Lowther    (gr son)  3months   (Dau Jane's child)
Richard TURNBULL  (visitor)   19  Denton
RG9/3917 pg12

1871 at Wetheral
Margaret TURNBULL   83  (shopkeeper, grocer)
Jane    (dau)                 39
William  (gr son)           14
John                               9
Sarah Jane                    5
Arthur                            3
Richard WILKINSON (visitor)   25  Low Hesket
RG10/5215 pg28

1881 at Botchergate
Jane TURNBULL     49    (charwoman)
William                     23
Arthur                       13
RG11/5155 pg 7

I can't see William in 1891? - you say he is in Caldewgate, but I don't seem to be able to find him?



4076
Cumberland / Re: A Wedding photo family Conundrum.
« on: Wednesday 10 March 21 09:04 GMT (UK)  »
I think this is sister (Elizabeth) Jane TURNBULL in 1891 - with grandmother (Elizabeth) Jane TURNBULL at Rickergate:
RG12/4289 pg22

Elizabeth Jane TURNBULL    59     Botcherby  (charwoman)
Arthur                                     22     Botherby  (railway labourer)
Richard WILKINSON (boarder)  45  Denton  (brick labourer)
Elizabeth Jane TURNBULL      8      Carlisle

Modified to add:
Maybe put the photos on the Photo dating board - people there are very good at guessing ages and doing comparisons.  :)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/free-photo-restoration/


4077
Cumberland / Re: A Wedding photo family Conundrum.
« on: Wednesday 10 March 21 01:34 GMT (UK)  »
Haven't found a marriage for William and Sarah Anne yet, however I think William may be the son of Jane, bap 28 Feb 1858 at Carlisle, birth reg Dec qtr 1857 Carlisle (10b/373).

I have to go out now so can't write all the details, but he can be found on the 1861 with brother John Lowther TURNBULL (also a policeman in later years) and grandparents William and Margaret TURNBULL.

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