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Messages - yecartmannew

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Thanks everyone for your input, as ever it is much appreciated.

Lots of information has been tracked down as per the other thread, and I am still evaluating that.

This one was more specifically for the workhouse records, but sadly it looks like they might not be available at all.

Once again though, thank you.

As per your last post was he aged 126 on the 1971 census ;D ;D ;D


Long lived family, ours  ;) :-[

Afternoon All

I'm not sure if this is possible, but I am looking for information on 2 children who are listed in the workhouse on the 1851 census

James Mantle, Age 9, Pauper, Born in France
Henry Mantle, Age 4, Pauper, Born in France.

Any information on these two, especially dates of entry and exit of the workhouse, and the jackpot would be parents names or other family members.

Kind regards


I'm just after your thoughts if possible please.

As above, Henry Mantell b. abt 1845 is on the 1971 Census (which was taken on 2nd April) as lodging at Wellington Road, Birmingham

A month later, on 25th May he marries Catherine and gives his address on the marriage certificate as 214 Bristol Street, Birmingham.

The distance between the 2 is almost 4 miles which is around an hour on foot or 30 - 45 minutes on a horse drawn omnibus.

My question is, how likely is this? How far would someone have commuted for work in those days?

As this record also gives a birth place of France (only other place for this fact is the 1851 census) is it probable they are the same person or more likely to be 2 separate people?

If you simply search for Mant or Mant* it should come up ( I had the same problem with my Postle ancestors - typing the full surname produced zero results!).

The entry is for James Mantell 3 December The will of James Mantell late of West Bromwich in the county of Stafford who died 6 March 1880 at West Bromwich was proved at Lichfield by Elizabeth Reeves Mantell of West Bromwich Widow the Relict one of the Executors.

While I am here on the subject of wills I note that the Probate Calendar for Charles Creighton Mantell uses the expression administration with will. Have you obtained these documents although, as I understand it and others who have contributed to the thread may correct me on this, you might simply receive the letters of administration if you apply for them.

This may be a red herring but have you researched Louisa Smith b c 1849 who would appear to have been living with Charles Creighton Mantell and his father? ( see 1921 census free index and 1939 reg). She died in 1943, her probate entry saying she was of 21 Cregoe Street, probate to Joseph Edwin Winter, retired commercial clerk.


Thank you, yes I found it by entering Mant.

Regarding Creighton s will, it's sad and fascinating. He wrote the will in 1927 shortly after his own father died. Unfortunately he later was committed to a psychiatric hospital so would not have been deemed sound enough to change it. By the time he died everybody mentioned in the will had pre deceased him.

Louisa Smith was the family housekeeper (started as a Motherís  help ) and was very close to Creighton.

I wonder if the Thomas Mantell referred to in post 15 by John might be worth exploring further.

This is the 1851 census for him showing as nephew of James Mantell living in West Bromwich

James Mantell's place of birth is clearly shown as Hopton Wafers in the following censuses. There is, I note, a baptism for a James Mantle 22 July 1810 in Neen Savage - parents James and Sarah. Neen Savage is very near to Hopton Wafers.

A search in the newspaper archive shows a notice in the Birmingham Journal  20 July 1867 of the marriage of Thomas Mantell. The wording is interesting as it states Thomas Mantell, nephew of James Mantell, coach builder. Like Henry's it was a non conformist wedding.

 Further newspaper notices from 1870 show that James Mantell was retiring from his coach building business in favour of his nephew Thomas.

James Mantell died in West Bromwich in 1880 aged 69 and left a will - might it be worth a punt in case Henry is mentioned?

( Also worth noting that the James showing as nephew to Charles in the 1871 census has the occupation of coach painter - presumably coach builders required coach painters!).


I can't find the probate / will for James on the gov probate page, but I can see it on ancestry.  I don't normally have problems finding probate / wills. What a puzzle...

Edit, found it now and have ordered a copy.

Your Henry born about 1845 is a bit of a mystery.  I canít see a birth registration for him. I have now found him on the 1861 census aged 15 a hairdresser born Birmingham. Do you have a birth certificate or a baptism for him?

No, the earliest i have dicumented for him is 1871, then masses of info later. Hiwever several lines if enquiry ha e been mentioned up thread which may be helpfull, i just hav'nt had time to look properly .

Thereís this one

Charles Creighton Mantell
March Q 1890
Vol 6D page 57
Motherís maiden name Wilson

Death registration in 1975 with birthdate of 25 December 1890

Possible marriage in Preston of Charles Mantell to Annie Eliza Wilson in 1884

These are the correct people:

Charles Creighton Mantell b.28 Dec 1889 b'ham d. 28 Jun 1975 Rubery hospital, never married

His father Charles Mantell b. 1858 b'ham d. 3 may 1926 b'ham m. Oct 1884 Peston to Annie Eliza Wilson

His grandfather Charles Mantell b.1820 Hopton Wafers d.sometime after 1891 m. Pricilla Bennett

His great grandfather James Mantell b.1771 Cleobury Mortimer d. Sometime after 1851 m Sarah (possibly last name  ew)

Then we have:

Joan Lily Mantell b.21 Oct 1918 B'ham d.28 Sep 1985 Malvern, m.18 Sept 1939 Harold Maurice Trigg

Her father Henry Mantell b.5 Oct 1872 B'ham d.17 May 1944 B'ham m.31 Jan 1917 Marie Turbefield

Her grandfather Henry Mantell b.abt 1845 B'ham d.Jul 1927 B'ham m. 25 May 1871 Carrs Lane Capel, Birmingham to Catherine Alexander

Her great grandfather as given on Henry and Catherine's marriage certificate is Thomas Mantell, deceased, Millwright

I haven't had chance to evaluate or log any of the info found on this thread yet but lots of it looks like it might be helpful.

the exact relationship between Creighton and her mother Joan, the exact nature of which has always escaped us. I feel like we could be close now.

I'm obviously missing something here - who are Creighton and Joan, please?

Sorry, that was rude of me. I have added the link to my ancestry  tree and then blithely carried on muttering as if everybody had seen it.

Joan Mantell was my grandmother,  herself the granddaughter of our Henry b.1845.

Charles Creighton Mantell was a relation, but currently on the floating tree as we cannot confirm the exact relationship.

Best guess from the family is that Creighton and Henry Jnr b.1872 and son of Our Henry were cousins.

Creighton died intestate and there was a request for family members to come forward. Joan tried but was apparently  "1 relationship too far removed" and unable to claim, so the assets went to the Crown.

My Mum remembers being taken to visit Mad Uncle (honorary title) Creighton in the psychiatric hospital when she was a child and remembers him fondly as being a bit strange but kindly.

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