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Messages - panished

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Travelling People / Re: Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher
« on: Sunday 21 March 21 20:32 GMT (UK)  »

Thank you again like i say i will look also, look after yourselve Kazi


Travelling People / Re: Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher
« on: Thursday 18 March 21 19:20 GMT (UK)  »

 did you ever get to learn anything about the Bacons, i tried my best to find everything i could for them, they are stated as coming up from the South and living over at Selston, from reading your posts i think you said one of Old old Gipsy George Smiths brothers William went around as William Bacon for i found him with that as a alias, then you said the Smiths and Bacons are related then on my dna i have Smith cousins related to the Grays with the Bacon's and Smiths in their family tree, i would like to know if you found out who the Bacons are i found large amounts i wrote it all up here

if you do not know anything just do not write back, read all the storeys thoe that i found on the link above, i wonder if it was William over at Hawthorne street on that camping ground when that thomson said of them as so-called, i wonder if that was William Smith and who are the Bacon's from the South.

Travelling People / Re: Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher
« on: Wednesday 17 March 21 21:13 GMT (UK)  »


  You have done great, well done i thank you so much for the information you showed me, you do not have to do any more you have given me enough for two life times, i will try to find information in the storeys that we have found over the years i have wrote them down before in several threads so i will see if i can find them again and put them on here so you will be able to see them all in one go, look at this below Joseph is Sky's Granddad or Gr Grandad i think and would be a Uncle i think of some sorts to my Mother or Cousin maybe, but the strange thing was i showed Sky this story long ago and i wanted her to think of the Smith connection but she never said anything, i do not think she picked up on what i wanted her to see, the story tells of Joseph being related to these Smiths, why Sky never said anything i do not know, i think She relies more on the census and legal notes that most Genealogy people think of as concrete answers, also the story below the first one is about Gipsy's fighting in Nottingham a good read the article in full and the new place names where some of them stayed like White Horse Field which i have not known of, the Smiths in the article i am sure connect to old old George Gipsy Smith, i have offten wrote about Red Lion Street Narrow Marsh everyone of the old ones are connected to that place in one time or another, like Keswick street they are all demolished now but i know every step where they are in this day i will show you maps another time to help you, there is no need now to help me no more for you have done for me a great deed and i would not like to trouble you no more, thank you again Kazi i will write another time when i get everything together for you, it may be a few months but i will look for what i have found and see if there is more of anything, old Gipsy George Smith that my Mother new as a relative of some sorts from the older times had a George and a Sidney and one of his Daughters was Jane Janey Janis from what i remember Janis was a real nice person and evan in this day if ever i chance to meet Her we have a hug, Her Mam and Dad are long gone now they must come from one of the older Smiths round Nottingham, we are all from the Sneinton way like the old old old Smiths that i have offten wrote about, good Luck to you Kazi you done good by me i will write back later i promise maybe i will not find no more but at least you will see the things i did find, 


                           HAWKER HIS WEALTHY SONS-IN-LAW.
Saturday 17 June 1916
 Nottingham Evening Post

A  melee in the Derby Cattle Market on Friday, in which prisoner was rescued from custody and a constable had to make use of his staff, had a sequel at the police-court to-day. Joseph Wiltshire, hawker, 6, Gedling-street, Nottingham, was fined 10s.  assaulting Pc. Bristow, and for assaulting Special Constable H. A. Wallace (market  superintendent), whom he struck several times on the face and body; while Alfred Smith, dealer,  living in a van at Cotton-lane, was fined 7s. 6d. for fighting. Bristow apprehended Smith and his antagonist, whereupon Wiltshire (the father-in-law of the men) and others intervened and succeeded in getting one of the prisoners away. Wiltshire then ran off, but was stopped by Mr. Wallace who told the Bench that Wiltshire made a mad struggle for freedom. Wiltshire, against whom there were eight previous convictions. including one for police assault, stated that  his sons-in-law had a lot of money in their possession and was afraid they would be robbed.

  Friday 27 December 1929
   Nottingham Evening Post
POLICE COURT ECHOES OF CHRISTMAS. PEOPLE CHARGED IN NOTTINGHAM. SCRAP BETWEEN GIPSIES BRIDLESMITH-GATE. The Christmas festivities had echo at Nottingham Guildhall to-day,   two gangs of gipsies, who started fighting in Bridle-Smith-Gate on Christmas Eve, were summoned to appear, they were: George William Welbourne,18, living in a caravan Cromford-avenue. Carlton; Sidney Smith,18. of Red Lion-street; John Lee, 21. caravan dweller Wollaton Park; and Alfred Smith, 25, of Barker-gate, William Holland, 22 Red Lion-street; Thomas Albert, Smith, 34, Red Lion-street .Clara English 22 Red Lion Street John Lee, White Horse field Wollaton

Travelling People / Re: Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher
« on: Tuesday 16 March 21 20:58 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Kazi

 More great bran new information that is in this time the first time that such information as ever passed by my eyes, Sue and Sky have helped me in the past but you have showed me now evan more truth, all three of you have been bringers of truth that as opened my eyes, if you look at this story below would you know if the Smith Girl is of the Nottingham Smiths for i am sure when Henry says

 " My son married this woman's sister " well i am sure he is talking of the Smith girl, do you know of a Ellen Smith who as a Sister who would have married Henry's Son, its just a try by me by reading reports, thank you again for telling me of the information you located, i never new David died in the hospital my Mother telled of a young David who died then Sue and Sky found things for me to back up the old oral talk that i would sit and liston to as my Mother would have long chats with me about life long ago, She says David had a sort of scarf rapped around his neck and was poorly only a little fellow he was, my Mother was just only a child herself but remembers many of those young moments, Sue and Sky found things that i will forever be grateful for and then you come along and just be a sort of nice person, that's not a bad sort of thing to be and do, i think it may help myself to think more on being a better person myself, i will write back if i find another Smith that may connect, you never know but Gipsy George Smith said we was Cousins in his talk to my Mother and i would talk with one of His Daughters and She would say the same, they new the old Romany talk but all the old people now are gone and it doesn't take long for everything to vanish, i learned lots of what they call the Romany words to but in the city all the people of the Gipsy's would be dealing people and you would know of the cant language of the city dealers, when i came along i learned both but thought them as just one language, but how was i to know, then when i met lots of Gipsy people by talking to them on-line over many of these past yeares and reading things well i realised lots of words was old Romany and lots was old cant, it was an eye opener to be able to separate the two and go back in my mind and remember the times they were used.

In this story below it may be the other girl Henry is talking about but Henry knows this Smith Girl there may be a clue in some of the deatail in this story.

Monday 17 september 1934 Nottingham evening post


 When Henry Wiltshire, 50, hawker, of St. Ann'street, appeared before the magistrates with two women companions at the Nottingham Guildhall to-day, jointly charged with being drunk and disorderly in Milton-street on Saturday night, he declared himself to be a "gentleman," and took it upon himself the full blame for the lapse of the women. The women were Ellen Smith, 27, and Rose Ann Stranther, 40. Referring to one of them, Wiltshire declared :" My son married this woman's sister, and I had not seen this girl for a few years. They are here through me getting them drunk. "Its my fault." The Bench however, imposed fines. Wiltshire and Smith were fined the higher amounts

Travelling People / Re: Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher
« on: Monday 15 March 21 21:22 GMT (UK)  »
  Helo Kazi

Thank you for helping me and I will write back another time, you have been very kind to me and I will always remember you with fondness, thank you for finding the true date in confirming my thoughts, I see you as you in your kind deeds and wish for good luck to pass your way.

This below is about Elik, we both wrote a few times to each other, in life you get one shot, Elik was on the front line and a good kind person, I will always speak of his great name and also wish you to read these words below, Elik was also kind to me in the days of the past, Elik spoke  but a few words to me yet the few could outshine the vast books of the so-called who passed their judgment on people that they only fooled and the foolish who also in this day willingly believe a room that contains holds truth, but what does contain mean if not to shakle, why not look through free eyes, why is a trying word, better to leave the fools with fools words for they know not how to try, I stayed round Lanark for a few days once on my way up to the higher mid lands of Scotland, I will always remember Elik, why would I ever forget him.
Elic Kennedy
8 February 2010
ON CHRISTMAS Eve the Gypsy Traveller community saw, with great sadness, one of our finest men travel on from us. Following a short and sudden illness, Elic passed away at Hairmyres Hospital in South Lanarkshire.

Alexander Kennedy was born 60 years ago last August in Lanark, but it wouldn't have mattered where, as he loved every part of this country. He was a proud Romany Gypsy man whose family roots lay in and around the Lanark, Borders and Edinburgh areas. He was a direct descendant of one of the foremost Romany Gypsy families in Scotland and could trace his bloodline back to the Queen of the Yetholm Gypsies, Esther Faa Blyth.

Elic loved his culture, its traditions, its way of life, history and language.

He was an artist of some considerable talent. He could make anything out of wood and created many paintings (none of which he would sell for profit) depicting scenes of Gypsy Traveller life including the caravans and wagons of yesteryear.

Elic was a great character who lived life to the full. He had a great sense of fun and loved engaging with people from all walks of life. He loved nothing better than taking his vardo (traditional Romany wagon] to what is now left of the traditional Gypsy gatherings such as St Boswells, Brough Hill and Appleby. The first thing he would do was light up a "stick fire" where everybody would congregate and pass the time of day. Whether you were Giorgio or Gypsy Traveller you would walk away with a history lesson. If you hung about long enough, and many did, you would get a right good feed from the many pots cooking over the fire (nouvelle cuisine was certainly not on his menu).

Elic and his family had recently become settled in Symington, but he had spent most of his life on the road, first with his parents and then with his wife, Freda, and his own family, trying to maintain his traditional way of life. He was a man to whom fairness mattered and he despised prejudice and injustice in any form.

Elic, along with many others from the Gypsy Traveller community, was well acquainted with misunderstanding and discrimination. It was such experiences that made him determined to work towards redressing the balance and he became a passionate advocate and activist for his community. He treated everyone as an equal, had no time for posturing and pretension and was very quick to pick up on it.

Elic made a significant contribution to the Scottish Government's Strategic Working Group on Gypsy Travellers. He was particularly concerned about issues such as accommodation and recognition of Gypsy Travellers as an ethnic minority in Scotland. He lobbied MPs, local and national, and he became a force to be reckoned with and could debate with anyone for hours to prove a point if he thought he was right.

One of the things that angered him most was how Gypsy Travellers were portrayed by the media and he would grab every opportunity and invitation to speak about the positive aspects and all that is good about our lifestyle and culture .

Elic truly was a one-off and his passing is a loss not only to our own community but to the many whose lives he touched. He has left a lasting legacy in his family, who will carry on the traditions and heritage he so proudly preserved.

Be assured Elic, wherever you are, there are still, and will continue to be, "Hearts upon The Highway".

Elic is survived by his wife, his sons and grandchildren.
Born: 22 August, 1949, in Lanark.

Died: 24 December, 2009, in East Kilbride, aged 60.

Travelling People / Re: Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher
« on: Sunday 14 March 21 21:17 GMT (UK)  »
  The Story of The Gold Coined People

 there was a portrait photo of my GrandMother, that hung on a wall above what looked to me like a shrine, She was what is known as a Rawney Monition, She was one of the last of the true Gold Coin People, in each ear She had a Gold Sovereign, my Mother said it had to be an half Sovereign for the weight would be to much if the full one dangled down, then on Her chest She wore the Gold Coin Broach a big looking thing, they say it was called a Five pound Gold Coin,  She wore a bonnet with a  small feather in, She was Regale and of the highest order, the Woman I was told would wear the Gold Coin rings, you would either in the past make them yourself or have a ring made from a gold smith, I was speaking to a man says his names Stanley from down the way, he said the old Stanley's called them the raparound, now my Mother told of long years when She was small, old relatives told Her of long ago talk, its at least the middle times of the 1800s, but they themselves could of been telling what there Old People told them, but my Mother told of how the Woman would plait Coins into their hair, this was more or less a looking thing, but She also telled how She was telled that they would hide Golden Coins in their hair, so the Coins could be safe, She says they could be woven in, in such a way you could not see them or they could not fall out ,it was there answer to having a bank account, this is what as been passed down to me, oral history, the old photo of my GrandMother is the seeing record of such things of Gipsy's now gone, I saw my own Mother with Golden Coins in Her ears and on Her fingers, plus Golden Coin Broaches  that where hand made and welded together, I have always worn the Gold Coins round my neck, and hand made Golden Coin rings, this is the truth of today, also the Woman liked to wear beaver skin coats, for when it rained the water would not penetrate, they were far from the weak and downtrodden you may hear of, they were much more powerful than anyone now alive will ever know, they have been left out of history, these are the Gold Coin People

Kazi this is your updated information that you found and wrote to me, thank you for sharing things I hope to write more in the future with all the many records that I have found

“ Hi, I have an update on George Oxby Smith and his wives...

George Oxby Smith was born in a tent, Staunton-on-the-Wolds, Notts on the 13 March 1868.  On his birth cert his father is given as John Smith a Labourer and his mother as Mary Smith, Previously Smith.

He was Baptised 18 Mar 1868 Staunton-on-the-Wolds, Notts.  His father is given as John Smith, mother Maria - Gipsy's.

As previously stated in this thread, on the 1891 census he is encamped in Checkley, Cheadle, Staffs aged 24 with Ellen Smith (Clayton) 21, Arthur Smith 24, Mary Ann Smith 24 (our direct ancestor) and her child Francis Smith aged 1.

George Oxby Smith died on 5 Feb 1947 at 4 Keswick Street Sneinton, Nottingham.  His death was registered by E Doyle, daughter of 4 Keswick Street.  She is Ellen Hetty Smith bn 1 Jul 1920, her mother being Agnes White. Ellen Hetty is now the partner of an Andrew Doyle 1915-1980.
George was buried 11 Feb 1947 Wilford Hill Cem, Nottingham in the same grave as Agnes and their son Albert Henry Smith 1925-1955 (he died in Sidcup, Kent).”


So now George Oxby Smith died on 5 Feb 1947 at 4 Keswick Street Sneinton, so he was alive at the same time as a George Smith of Keswick Street Sneinton attacked my Grandmother in 1941 but which George was it, you have told how there was a son named George I wander is that Gipsy George Smith our stated cousin which I would often see about the town, I wander to what have I missed and am I right, was there more to this story no one was ever interested in telling my Mother the truth in fact they lied but why, my Mother told me after the attack her Mother went on a slow spiral of death that in truth never left the soul of my own Mother, they are both gone now and like the two Georges the two Rebecca's and the rest in these story's are all gone to this world may they all rest in peace…that’s just the way of it.

Travelling People / Re: Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher
« on: Sunday 14 March 21 21:16 GMT (UK)  »
My Mother told me she saw a coffin in the flames of the fire, she told me she saw her Mother in the coffin, her Mother told her to look into the fire and my Mam saw her own Mother in the future that was to come as real life in the dark days that they were both living, often I would have to comfort my Mother when a great darkness would envelope her in the deepest of sadness you could imagine, dark dark all encompassing darkness would surround her in a sweal of dark spirits.

When my Granmar Rebecca died my Mother was young then another Woman came into the house and my Mother when able took of and lived in a room Attic at the top of a house she was still in her teens, she would go out Hawking and making money in the end I came along there is much more but I will not speak of these times, my Mother told the story of her Mother to me, she asked and she asked people who would know true answers of who attacked her Mother for my Mother would talk of revenge but no one would give a name all that was told was that a woman was jealous of her and attacked her for like my own Mother Rebecca her Mother would sing and dance for fun, often I have seen my own Mother go up and take the mike from a singer in one of the old types of public houses that used to do those kind of things and she would sing old songs with no care in the world, if you know not of these things it is because you never saw such things but this is how life used to be, her own Mother as told to my Mother by people long ago was a Woman of great freeness who evan in death could not be chained many try and shackle that which they themselves can not be, it is true they try and destroy that which they fear for it is them who wish to bind the flower for they know not how to blossom yet they ultimately fail as this story is told, in death freedom rises through true words unknown yet they rise as the day ends, my own Mother would hold tight an old picture of her Mother and cry alone, one day I heard a noise and opened the door slowly, maybe only an inch or two, there I spied my own Mother rocking to and throw with a sorrowfull wail crying and talking to her Mother through the picture, her Mother was very handsome with golden coins in each ear, golden coin rings and golden coin broaches about her breast, all hand made, often she told me she asked who attacked her Mother now I have found out but why, what was the reason and who was the George, and why did he go in such anger to my Granmothers place and how am I related to these Smiths who through dna are related to the people I come from, I have over twenty Smiths born as Smiths in this day with great Gipsy family histories who must come from several of what they call lines, they all thoe connect to me, what does it all mean maybe one day I will find more.


Travelling People / Re: Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher
« on: Sunday 14 March 21 21:12 GMT (UK)  »
So now in 1941 in April of that year a George Smith of Keswick-street, Sneinton attacks Rebecca in this record I found below,
Thursday 10 April 1941
  Nottingham Evening Post
Nottm. Assault Charge George Smith, of Keswick-street, Sneinton, appeared at the Nottingham Summons Court to-day, and pleaded not guilty to assaulting Rebecca Holmes, of Clarence-street, on March 31st ...  Rebecca Holmes said Smith entered her house, kicked her on the leg, and gave her a black eye. Smith was bound over to be of good behaviour for a year in the sum of £5, and ordered to pay 4s. costs

Then I read this on-line but can not say if the date is right but I put in dates right up until 1950 and no Rebecca is known, some of my relatives I read of write of a different date and I think why, if you Kazi can help me I would ask of you to see if you know if this date below is true
 burial register
location WilfordHill Cemetery Nottingham
Rebecca Holmes
Buried on:
29 April 1942
recorded in:  Nottinghamshire
date of death 
24 April 1942

My own Mother told me how she watched her Mother die after being attacked, this death took many months, She told me how the times were hard times to witness the dieing of her own Mother for after the beating she took for she told how she was kicked bad while on the ground in the  mid section and that the beating brourt on a bad illness that destroyed her insides she would often speak to my Mother telling her of her coming death these are here actual words as told to me by my Mother as my Mother as a young girl comforted her own Mother in her dieing illness
“ look into the fire Becca, look into the fire……….tell me Becca what do you see”
    I see flames mam, I see flames, dancing flames, I see flames mam, dancing flames,
“ then look into the flames Becca, look into the flames, look deep into the flames, now what do you see”
I see you mam, I see you, in a coffin  mam, I see you,
“ don't be afraid Becca, don't be afraid, I will always be there"


Travelling People / Re: Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher
« on: Sunday 14 March 21 21:10 GMT (UK)  »
This below is what Sky who started this thread wrote a while back, Maria and Rebecca are in family two, Rebecca my Grandmother was born in some field land Sheffield way my Gt Grandmother Maria (Mariah) told my Mother she came from Scotland Musselbourer way, in records it is stated Hull as the place of her birth but I believe what my Mother was told by her own Grandmother that then was told to me so Scotland way it is evan thoe they must have been around Hull maybe for some reason.

Quoted from skys post
“ It's interesting to see, into at least the 1930s-1940s many of Joseph Wilshaw and Maria Wilshaw nee Knight branch of the tree, keep living or hanging around as a strong family unit, while still travelling the midlands.”

1901 Censuses

Civil parish-Pleasley
Ecclesiastical parish-Shirebrook Holy Trinity
Registration district-Mansfield

Family one- Travelling vans
Name-Joseph Wilt Shaw, Age-56
Name-Maria K Wilt Shaw nee Knight, Age-57
Name-Emma Wilt Shaw, Age-18
Name-Henry Wilt Shaw, Age-16

Family two-Travelling vans
Name-William Wilt Shaw, Age-21
Name-Maria R Wilt Shaw nee Hartley, Age-20
Name-Rebecca Wilt Shaw, Age-4          my Grandmother
Name-William Wilt Shaw, Age-2

Family three-Travelling vans
Name-Thomas Wilt Shaw, Age-37
Name-Margaret Wilt Shaw nee Wray, Age-20
Name-Mathilda Wilt Shaw, Age-11
Name-Harriett Wilt Shaw, Age-10
Name-Thomas Wilt Shaw, Age-7
NameMargaret Wilt Shaw, Age-5
Name-Julia Wilt Shaw, Age-2
Name-Emma Willt Shaw, Age-2

At the same time, two more of Joseph Wilshaw and Maria Wilshaw nee Knight's kids are camping in another area together at 11 Smith's Field in Caravans.

Kazi this Smith's Field is where all of the Smiths and Wilsher familys would stay on, it’s the Kings Meadow Hawthorne street Cremorne area that is rich with the stories that we have already found and wrote about, far more is unknown than known remember about the Gipsy colony around peg terrace I think we found that way

Ecclesiastical parish-St George
Registration district-Nottingham
Sub-registration district-Nottingham South West

Name-Joseph Wilshire, Age-37
Name-Elizabeth Wilshire nee Woodward, Age-38
Name-Joseph Wilshire, Age-18
Name-Henry Wilshire, Age-16
Name-Mary Wilshire, Age-7
Name-Sarah Wilshire, Age-6/12

Name-Fred Wilshire, Age-30
Name-Annie Wilshire nee Taylor, Age-30
Name-Angerimia Wilshire, Age-10
Name-Fred Wilshire, Age-7 ( Fred Wilsher who marries Angereena Boyling)

Joseph Wiltshire/Wilshaw born 1844 Pontefract, Yorkshire West Riding in a camp, Stapleton.  Is the son to William Wilshaw 1811 and Lydia Jones 1800... Emma Graham nee kinght borrn abt 1825 is Joseph Wiltshire/Wilshaw 1844 monther in-law. Joseph Wilsher wife being Maria Knight Birth 1847.

Joesph Wiltshire/Wilshaw 1844 and Maria Kinght 1847 have at least 8 Kids, one of their Children is called Joseph Wilsher born 1865 Attercliffe, County of York... Who married Elizabeth Woodward so this is how the records go thurther back

People not in houses*(People sleeping in Tents)
1861*Pontefract, Yorkshire
William Willshaw  50  abt 1811  Longbillington, Nottinghamshire, Head  Tinner & Brazier       
Lidia Willshaw   49  abt 1812    Codbrough, Nottinghamshire,  Wife     
Joseph Willshaw  15  abt 1846    Darrington, Yorkshire   Son
Lidia Willshaw   13   abt 1848    Lincoln, Lincolnshire    Daughter   
Walter Nelson *   32 abt 1829    Scotland    Son-in-Law       
Lotis Nelson    32  abt 1829    Stowe, Lincolnshire,    Daughter   
Henry Nelson   8  abt 1853    Wakefield, Yorkshire,     Grandson     
George Nelson   7  abt 1854    Wakefield, Yorkshire,    Grandson   
Harriet Nelson   5  abt 1856    Carlton, Yorkshire,   Granddaughter     
Mary Nelson   3  abt 1858    Pontefract, Yorkshire,    Granddaughter     
William Blewitt  52  abt 1809 widow   Stamford, Lincolnshire,    Head    tinner & Brazier
Sarah Blewitt   24 abt 1837 widow   London, Middlesex,   Daughter-in-Law     
Valuza Blewitt  5   abt 1856    York, Yorkshire, England    Granddaughter     
Enis Blewitt  1  abt 1860    Hull, Yorkshire, England           
John Lee  70   abt 1797    Woodbridge, Suffolk,   Head   
Charlott Lee  70  abt 1791    Woodbridge, Suffolk,     Wife   
Tenna Lee  27   abt 1834    Livingston, Norfolk, Daughter   
Mary Boss   70 abt 1791    Farnham, Suffolk,  Widow     
John Phillips 29   abt 1832    Thorne, Yorkshire Tinner & Brazier


So this is William,
William Wiltshire 
Bp 19 July 1805, Long Bennington, Lincolnshire, son of Edward and Letitia Wiltshire, a Traveller. Edward Wilsher 1760 married a Letitia Smith 1760. Then their Son William 1811 married Lydia Jones 1812.

Then  everyone above gets mixed through many Gipsy names right the way up until I,m the last man standing at the end of a long line, theres no one left but me but then I found my dna cousins and now I have over 400 as of now, but I will be the last of this line, of this I have no doubt.   

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