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Messages - panished

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64
Travelling People / Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« on: Thursday 29 October 20 08:29 GMT (UK)  »



Friday 22 January 1875
  Western Daily Press
    Bristol

Nelson Talbot and Albina Smith, said to be gipsies, were charged with fighting at St. George's, on Sunday afternoon. Talbot did not appear.  defendants were fighting at about three o'clock on Sunday afternoon, and a crowd of 300 or so people were watching the men, who were stripped for the fight. Smith was bound over to keep the peace for six months, and warrant was issued for the apprehension of Talbot





Update on this I think Tubal Ancora Smith is actually Jubal Smith, born 1814 in Wiltshire son of Johnny Ancorn Smith and Agrippina Smith:

Jubal Smith, son of Gripy Smith, baptised at Wroughton, Wiltshire 13th July 1814

1861 Bristol, Gloucestershire
Jubal Smith, 47, Hawker, born Wranton, Wiltshire
Mary Smith, 43, wife, born Fredenton, Warwickshire
Abina Smith, 12, son born Sodmarton, Oxfordshire
Alfred Smith, 18, son born Shipton, Oxfordshire
Hannah Smith,14, dau, born High Littleton, Somerset
Jesse Smith, 2, son, Broadway, Staffordshire
Sophia Smith, 7, daugh, Netherton, Staffordshire

22 August 1883: Marion Jane Smith, wife of Jubal Smith, grinder, no home, Charged with being drunk  at Warwickshire.

I'm now inclined to think the Aaron Smith arrested with him at Chesham in 1859 is the same man I am researching,  because of the repetition of the name Jesse as a male name in both families. The obvious assumption would be that John Smith, scissor grinder, who Aaron names on his marriage as father is Johnny Ancorn Smith, and he and Jubal are brothers, but there is a good twenty years or more between their births, so I am not altogether convinced.


To complicate further, there is a John Smith and Priscilla James baptising children around the right time to be Aaron, Jonathan and Jesse's parents and in the right counties Berkshire and Hampshire:

Mary Smith, 'Born in the lane', daughter of John Smith 'Traveller' and Priscilla baptised 14th Janaury 1824 at Arborfield Berkshire

Eliza Smith, daughter of  John Smith & Priscilla James 'Travellers' baptised at Stratfield Saye, Hampshire    on 18th November 1832.

Rhoda Anne Smith, daughter of John Smith and  Priscilla 'Travellers' baptised at Finchampstead, Berkshire on 27th July 1834.

65
Travelling People / Re: Tiggi's Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In.
« on: Wednesday 28 October 20 03:24 GMT (UK)  »
 
kr236rk
RootsChat Member
***

Re: Tiggi's Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In.
« Reply #277 on: Sunday 15 September 19 18:49 BST (UK) »
Quote
Hi,

Noticed Peonie's reply #239 of Tuesday 26 February 08:

1851 Census HO107, 2047, Folio 757, Page 46

Tent 1  Thomas (40) and Alicia Smith (40) and children

Tent 2  Edward (25) and Mary Ann Ancona (22) and child

Tent 3  Serhal? (30) and Mary Ancona (33) and children

Tent 4  Edward (59) and Lucy Buckland (58) and children

Tent 5  Emanuel ? (33) and Susan Buckland (33) and children

at Redditch, Worstershire.


Who were the Ancona family please?

Many thanks :)





 there seems to be more indepth information on these links about names and locations and such, i will not be writing back so no need to answer

http://romanygenes.com/18411851-census-2/4532697246

 http://romanygenes2.webeden.co.uk/census1851/4526606188

 

66
Travelling People / Re: Tiggi's Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In.
« on: Monday 26 October 20 12:09 GMT (UK)  »
Kirsty these are the other photos that you may like


Wednesday 5 November 1913 The Sketch Magazine, there is a good photo of this Lady, very nice for the Relatives who may not have seen this

                   A ROMANY ROMANCE THE GIPSY BELLE OF THE HOME COUNTIES,
                             FEZENTA BUCKLAND WHO WAS RECENTLY MARRIED.

Mrs. Buckland, formerly known as Decent Fenner, has the reputation of being the most beautiful gipsy in the Home Counties. She was married the other day to William Buckland, also a gipsy, at Datchet. Photograph by Illustrations Bureau.]

 The SPHERE Saturday 14 August 1948

THIS GIPSY CARAVAN HAS BEEN PRESENTED TO THE LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL BY MR. AND MRS. COURTENAY MASON, OF HAMPSTEAD, FOR PERMANENT DISPLAY AT KEN WOOD The caravan, originally owned by the Buckland’s of Buckinghamshire.



 

67
Travelling People / Re: Tiggi's Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In.
« on: Monday 26 October 20 12:08 GMT (UK)  »
Kirsty

          A few more photos, try and go on the link above i put on from the Dan Boswell thread on pages 44. 45. 46. there is many photos on there that i found over the years there may be more for you to look into, it would be a shame if relatives never found all the old photos that i came across while researching the old newspaper articles over the years, i have also found more and will also put them on RootsChat on a page for photos of the long gone Gipsy's that people like you try and find, everyone always wants to find photos, if you sign up to Ancestry d.n.a you will be able to see many photos of relatives and their wider family's, i have wrote about family's that are related to me on the Joseph Wilsher thread by Sky, all the ones i have wrote about are related through shared d.n.a from 1st cousin to 8th cousin in the template that Ancestry use, Ancestry have millions of people in their database yet i have only several hundred matches overall, when you take away my Fathers relations which is easy to do i am left with many Gipsy relations like the Bucklands, how you will know they are the Gipsy Bucklands is by looking at their family tree if they have the open padlock on their profile, these are the ones i have used on the Wilsher thread, but with the Bucklands that i am related to well they have the padlock sign on that tells you that you can view their photos and records if you first write to them, so now i will show you the way to bypass this stage to show you how to learn truths, so just click on where it says shared d.n.a, this link shows you who your match is related to that also share d.n.a with you, so me and the Bucklands share d.n.a with family's like the Wharton's Baily's Jeffery's Lovell's Stanley's Boswells and many more, so by doing this i know the Bucklands are Gipsy's in origin, this way shows how i match to a person named Lovell in direct d.n.a from a common ancestor and also how my Buckland match is also related to that same Lovell match through shared d.n.a, in the breakdown of your d.n.a you will have the common ansester d.n.a and the ethnicity d.n.a. Ancestry separate the two and show you who your old family ties are from long ago, then they show you your shared ethnicity, this part in my mind is still a work in progress for i now match to two Romany Gipsy people who have foreign names from Europe one female one male who have no d.n.a from the lands of my birth yet my d.n.a is in them from the older times, i hope this as been of help to you, also lots of people leave their padlock open for relatives to look at photos, the Boswells mostly do and most really, i suppose some like you to join their family group in a sort of group chat, either way if you join Ancestry the world opens up arisens that may amaze a person, the one thing i have found with the Gipsy d.n.a is that there is many links between family's, evan my distant cousins still when i click on their name several other family names come up that share old d.n.a with me, on my fathers side when you get to the older cousin matcher's they are offten alone and do not have shared matcher's but the Gipsy's seem right up to the olden times to have strong inter family matcher's, they must of stayed within themselves long ago, this is the truth through my own d.n.a. its true an old match say a Boswell will still match to my newer matcher's like third cousin evan though my old match may be an 8th cousin, this does not happen to the same exstent through my fathers side of my roots, i want you to know this as true, they must of stayed within family groups long ago on a scale that to me is now proved in my own d.n.a. its true to say though that you can also see how a second cousin may not share all the same d.n.a matcher's as yourself, i have close Gipsy relations that do not share all of my matcher's in other family's, i am sure this works both ways to, and also i see how the same Bucklands ethnicity may change between the same family groups, one will have the spoon of d.n.a from Europe through to Asia and the other just British, like i say ethnicity is still a work in progress and Ancestry do show and tell you these things may and do happen, as the data base expands and their knowledge grows more truth will come to be known.

 

68
Travelling People / Re: Tiggi's Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In.
« on: Sunday 25 October 20 20:31 GMT (UK)  »
This photo is another of the burning of Plato Bucklands Varda, this picture like many I have come across as just been in a magazine since 1926, some of these photos could be in old journals or later papers but there lost to the People of today, I would tell everyone to think about researching the old editions of magazines and papers  that are evan today being updated, most of you and your Family's will not have the access to old journals and papers that some People hold onto, just do what I do and look yourself, then share everything, help everyone, never let evan the smallest none descript piece of information slip away, save everything

this is another photo for the Bucklands and all their People the ones who have never seen this photo, its another great one

                                                               THE SPERE

October 9 1926 The Empires Illustrated Weekly Page 51

                                               THE CARAVAN OF A DEAD GIPSY

The last picture produced above shows the burning of a caravan belonging to Gipsy Plato Buckland, who died recently at the age of 102, the caravan was set alight and accordingly burnt to old custom

I was just looking for the record of Plato Buckland, and I came across this one from 1840, I found lots back to the 1700s, it is one of the greatest I have ever read,

Reading Mercury Saturday 22 February 1840

 MARLOW, SATURDAY, February 22. The following distinguished persons are on a visit to Sir W. R. Clayton, Bart., M.P., at ford The Baron Latouche, Sir J. Kirkland, Bart., and Lady, the Hon. Major Henniker, Colonel Fremantle, Tonga, Sir George Baker, Bart,, Miss Cole, Capt. and Mrs. Culpeper, &c, .—Plato Buckland, a well-known gipsy, appeared to prefer a case of assault against Jonathan Hickman, of Little Mallow. It appeared the parties had been playing at " Hussle penny" in a public-house, when a dispute arose, and the defendant tore the plaintiffs hat to pieces and put it in the fire. The plaintiff stated his case with gestures fitting and tongue most voluble The worthy Magistrates, however, very properly dismissed the case as a public-house quarrel., much to the satisfaction of the defendant and his solicitor. Mr. May. Plato was anything but  philosophic under his defeat.—

this below is just an extract of a much larger report with more great information, they must be either closely related to or one of the Old Original Family's

Swindon Advertiser and North Wilts Chronicle Saturday 15 November 1890
REMARKABLE FUNERAL SWINDON.

One of the most remarkable funerals ever witnessed probably in Swindon took place at the Parish Church, Old Swindon, on Wednesday afternoon last, the deceased an old gipsy named Timothy Buckland, 70 years of age. In consequence of the extraordinary reports which had been circulated as to the preparations which had been made for the funeral obsequies, and also that deceased held a titular position among the gipsies, well as that he had considerable wealth, led to the assemblage of several thousands of spectators in front of the church gates at the hour appointed, viz.. Three o'clock, and this crowd blocked up the roads leading thereto for some considerable distance, during the whole period of the formal service, which occupied but very little short of an hour. It appears that decease! was born at Hawkesbur Upton, in Somersetshire, in the year 1820, and from the time of his birth till that of his death has been living a predatory life, his practice being travel with vans, in which he and his family resided, he and his sons being generally engaged in horse and donkey dealing, and the female members of the family hawking goods in baskets throughout the country. The old man, having for some little time past been suffering from cancer in the mouth took up his abode in a field near the Wharf, in the Drove-road, Swindon, recently, and his other vans, the number of nine, in due course followed, the forming of a large gipsy encampment of upwards of 50 persons, consisting of deceased and his wife, four brother, their sons and daughters, and their children, living in their respective vans and tents, some of which bore a remarkable resemblance to the wigwams of the Indians, as seen in Canada and North America. The illness from which the old man was suffering threatening to have a fatal termination, the family had remained at Swindon for close upon to a month, awaiting the end

69
Travelling People / Re: Tiggi's Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In.
« on: Sunday 25 October 20 20:26 GMT (UK)  »
This photo is of Plato Buckland's Varda

                                               THE ILLUSTRADED LONDON NEWS

Registered as a Newspaper for Transition in the United Kingdom and to Canada and Newfoundland by Magazine Post




Saturday October 9 1926

                            BURNING THE CARAVAN AND WORLDLY  GOODS OF PLATO BUCKLAND,
                                    A  CENTENARIAN GIPSY WHO DIED AT MARLOW RECENTLY.


  In accordance with old Romany custom, the caravan of Plato Buckland, a gipsy who died the other day at the reputed age of 102, was burned at Marlow, with his other effects.

Photographs by C.N and 1.B.

if you go on this link from RootsChat its by me about Dan Boswell, well i have found dozens of old photos over the years just look at these on pages 44 45 46, there may be more people who look on here who also look for such things, i also have found more that i must put with all these on a page of their own so relatives may find the lost photos of their old relatives, go on the link then join the Newspaper Archives then type in the said Newspaper or magazine i put up with the date i write about then just type in, that meens write, as in keyboard, some of the words i write about the article and the computer will bring up the page with the photo, or just write to the moderator and say i sent you for the photo page, they dont know me but on reading my post they will help you, Kirsty why have you made another sign in name from your old one
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=730582.msg6047370#msg6047370

70
Travelling People / Re: Tiggi's Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In.
« on: Sunday 25 October 20 20:15 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Kirsty

           You wrote to me several years ago regarding the Bucklands, do you remember, i already put the place where you could find the photos, a year before you was asking for information the first time, you must not have seen my early posts then, now you ask for Platos photo, well if you sign up to the Newspaper archives you will through what i now put on find a few photos regarding Plato, you can view them free by just signing up, you get three goes free, or like i have done sign for the whole year its really reasonable and a great web site i do recomend you sign up for a year, also sign up for Ancestry d.n.a, by doing this you get to see who through d.n.a is related to you, i have several Buckland matches from 4th to 6th cousin mark, these Buckland do not have their pages open, that meens you have to write to them first then they show you lots of photos and records, i have not wrote to anybody but again lots who i am related to let their relatives see their photos without writing to them there is the open padlock sign, so in this way you also will along with the Newspaper archives get a great chance in finding family photos from long relatives, i will put up next the place where you may find the photos you are looking for in the Newspaper Archives its a great web site like Ancestry, sign up soon, when looking backwards its the way forwards.

 

71
Travelling People / Re: Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher
« on: Friday 11 September 20 11:10 BST (UK)  »
...............continued from previous page

Wife Thrashed With Whipstock.

The next summons was for an aggravated assault on his wife. Mrs. Smith said she had been married 17 years. and there was four children under 16 years of age. Last Saturday she went to Nottingham with her husband and returned home with him about four o'clock. He then went out and returned about ten o'clock. and belaboured her with a whipstock without any cause whatever. He struck her at least eight blows, and her screams brought P.s. Oscroft on the scene, who arrested her husband. Asked where she was going to live if she got a separation order Mrs. Smith said she would rather go to Bagthorpe than return to her husband . If her son spoke the truth with regard to the trap incident he would say that he did not see it. He was not there, and she did not fall out of the trap. Miss Mosley (Police Court Missioner) stated that she had examined Mrs. Smith. She was black and blue all over, and in a terrible state. At the request of her solicitor (Mr. F. Clayton) Mrs. Smith showed her arm to the magistrates. which was one mass of bruises from wrist to shoulder.

Scene in Court.

Smith showed his excitability in court. He constantly held up the proceedings, shouting in a loud voice, and when asked if he could not keep his client quiet Mr. R. A. Young said he knew of no means to achieve that end. The defence to the assault on the wife was a complete denial. Smith sticking to the story that she fell out of the trap. and the bruises were obtained in that way. Smith admitted that his wife had left him on six previous occasions. Inspector Richards said that Smith had a shocking record. His 81 previous convictions included five assaults on the police.

Unmitigated Brutality.

Lord Belper (chairman) characterised the offence as unmitigated brutality, and sent Smith to prison for six months on each charge, the sentences to run concurrently. The wife's application for a maintenance order would be allowed, and Smith would have to pay 30s. a week. Mrs. Smith would have the custody of the four youngest children. Immediately the sentence was announced Smith burst into tears, and raved about the court. He would not be pacified, and a group of gipsies who had been sitting at the back of the court Joined in the pandemonium. Smith shouted to his sons to keep a tight hold on his property, and he was taken to the cells groaning between tears.

Gathering of Nomads.

The scene outside the court was as if all the nomads on Epsom Downs had been let loose. Smith. it is stated has 15 children (some with a previous wife), and most of them were in the street in charge of horses and traps. Several of the sons and daughters, whose ages ranged from 40 to 17, were in tears, and none seemed to have any sympathy for the woman who had been so brutally treated. 
 
In the paper below it gives the address of where they where stopping in their caravans, it must have been a lane next to Cemetery-road of which i have not found in Carlton, Carlton is just up Carlton road which is next to Keswick street and all those roads and streets that the Wilshers and Smiths lived on, Keswick street is in Sneinton and Sneinton is next to Carlton and st Ann's, everyone is within close reach, i think some would move into houses and yards yet still move about with wagons around the City way up into the second world war, others stayed in houses but would move about from house to house, others it is true to say left Nottingham and once again hit the road, my older brother and sister told me they used to visit an Aunt somewhere in Nottingham who still lived in a old wooden varda, i remember my Mother talking about Marry, as in how you say the word "married" you know how you say “ I will marry that girl ” it's a strange way to say a name but that was how her name was spoke, Marry not marie, it rhymes with how you say harry, Marry, yes Marry was her name i to this day do not know who she was, my Mother said she was our Aunt, i was thinking at one time if it may have been Mariah that's my Gr Grandmother but i think for sure she may have passed away awhile before, on records my Gr Grandmothers name is mary or marie but that was not her name, her real name was Mariah and they never put that on records, people would think such things strange but when you think how Joseph Wilsher Wiltshire lived with his wife and her mother as two wife's well I suppose some would think strange of these things, to tell you the truth I don't think my own mother-in-law thinks much of me at all so we can knock that one on the head in this day, Ria lived in a house not to far away from us, i would be a very young age when she was still alive but i remember her well, she was another Aunt my Mother told me i was to behave myself when we would go to see Ria, Ria was from the Romany Gipsy family named Holmes, my Mother would say the Smiths was also like them as in family, she told me the Holmes and the Smiths were also altogether down the years, i lingered just one second to much once, just a second and Rias eyes pierced my soul, straight through, straight through, but she was fast she never lingered long in capturing me and freed my eyes and through this she allowed me to keep hers, she was also reserved in a quiet strength yet i felt a cold breeze that lay behind the barricade.

Thursday 01 August 1929
 Nottingham Journal
  Nottinghamshire

Stonepit-lane. Carlton

72
Travelling People / Re: Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher
« on: Friday 11 September 20 11:07 BST (UK)  »
Hi David
 
This is just to show you some information that may help you to understand how things where, everything connects, Old Gipsy George Smith who said we were related had sons to I remember one was named George and another named Sid Smith, so they liked the name George but in the story below you will read how one of old old George Gipsy Smiths sons was also named Sid, so I think they liked that name to, it may well be a clue, I will show and finish telling you about Sneinton soon, Sneinton links straight onto Carlton, also the old RedLion street in the old Narrow Marsh next to and below the Queen of the City St Marys, then within walking distance is the Meadows which they all lived on, they all moved about the City but mostly ended up in Sneinton, the Smiths and the Wilshers for sure go back a long way, I think there were many Smiths this way they I think would know the ones more South and the ones more North, East and West to, I think that ole Gipsy grapevine what they talk about in this day was well in use many years before our time, I will finish what I was talking about regarding Sneinton soon and show you more things of your Smith ancestor's, if you can not help me in any of the questions I ask of you, well it doesn't matter, I will get there one day if not I wont
Story below shows the name of Sid also it holds many truths
 
Friday 02 August 1929
  West Bridgford Times & Echo
   Nottinghamshire

CARLTON MAN'S 81 CONVICTIONS!

Gipsy Sent To Prison For Police Assault.

BRUTES 15 CHILDREN.

Remarkable Demonstration Outside the Shire Hall.

A remarkable demonstration of filial affection was witnessed both inside and outside the Nottingham Shire Hall on Wednesday. when George Smith, aged 61. who lives in a caravan In Cemetery-road. Carlton, was charged with assaulting the police and committing an aggravated assault on his wife. The wife, Agnes Smith, made an application for a maintenance order on the grounds of persistent cruelty. Police-sergeant Oscroft stated that as a result of a complaint concerning Smith using indecent language he visited the caravan colony at 9.40 p.m. last Saturday along with P.c. Morgan. On reaching the place he heard Smith using the most vile and indecent language imaginable. When Smith saw them he rushed to the gate and picked up a cart-shaft, swinging it about as if he was mad. He was very excitable, and after he had calmed down a little witness told him that he had called to see him about the bad language he was using.
 
 like a Raging Lion.

Smith then raved like a raging lion, said the sergeant He shouted that he had done four months for better than he was, and could do it again. He threatened to fetch a gun and shoot them both. Smith then picked up a cart-shaft and used it bayonet fashion. striking him in the chest. There was a struggle, and eventually Smith was overpowered and handcuffed.  When charged at the police-station with assaulting Ps. Oscroft in the execution of his duty. Smith replied: Fetch a doctor. I want to be down. Asked by Mr. R. A. Young (defending) if there was a quarrel between the man and his wife. Ps. Oscroft said that there had been.  With regard to the use of the cart-shaft Smith did not simply throw it out of the way. He made a deliberate thrust. P.c. Morgan, who had taken part in the adventure. corroborated. and said that when Smith thrust the shaft at the sergeant the latter was knocked back a yard.

Prisoner's Version. 

Smith's story was that his wife fell out of the trap when they reached home from Nottingham. and she blamed him for causing the fall, and went to fetch a policeman. The police handcuffed him, and he fell over the cart-shaft which he kicked out of his way. Asked if he was drunk Smith said. No, or i should not have gone to the policestation as quiet as i did. Sidney Smith, a 17-years-old son of the accused, said he saw his mother fall out of the trap. His father did not cause her to fall. With regard to the cart-shaft his father tripped over it, and with a few angry words to himself flung it out of the way

.......................continued on the next page

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