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Messages - panished

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Travelling People / Re: Gipsy Dan Boswell
« on: Friday 11 November 22 20:45 GMT (UK)  »
 Hi Don

  This is the way i hope to try and help you

Through looking at my DNA matches that are unique to me i just write in the name Locke in the cousin search menu, like i have said only one person of that name comes up as a distant cousin 6th to eighth range, his name is B.. Locke whose profile is managed by June13...... June13 does not put up information about the Locke male yet when i click on her name it shows she is from America and is also searching about the family named Locke and Savage, i do not share DNA with June13.

So i go back on B.. Locke's page and where it says shared DNA i find i share DNA with B.. Locke   and four other people all in one cluster all four of them are from my Maternal side of my DNA and all four of them have the Indian DNA two of them in the 20% range which is a high amount from what i have come to know through my own way of researching.

these are the four people who share DNA with me and the Locke male

DNA Maternal side
Heather  ......
2nd – 3rd Cousin
4th – 6th Cousin
Managed by worden.....
4th – 6th Cousin
Rebecca ....
4th – 6th Cousin

So Don i look through my cousin matches and see if there is anything that may help you and i find,   
Worden.... who managers J.B page is from Rock Hill, York, South Carolina, USA and on their page is this information.

Romany Family Tree
Worden Family Tree
Wharton Romany Family Tree
Bailey Family Tree
Research Interests
Chester, South Carolina, USA

 So i was thinking that J.B could be a Bingham, i match to several Wharton's Wardens in other clusters, and the Baileys i do not match to this Warden who managers J.Bs page yet i was thinking these are the names you write about.

Now this is how i may be able to help you, if i write to the male Locke whose DNA matches to me and who also shares DNA with me and what may turn out to be a Bingham and ask them to write to you and help you, they may not answer me and this male Locke may turn out to be one of the Locke's that do not have the H in their DNA, i was looking at some of the photos on June13 ancestry page and saw some Locke's from years back so i just googled their names and found some have the R in their DNA not the H, there is a Weldon Locke in a photo, i have not seen their DNA on-line but i am sure the photo matched a photo i saw on line with is life story this is just an extract " S.....  Weldon Locke was born on September 4, 1946 to Ralph and Memory Locke in Chicago, Illinois". These Locke's may be R DNA Locke's, i am sure one had a L DNA, so without actually writing to my Locke match we will never truly know who he is, i find if you collect the whole story of everything you get the bigger picture of life, this male Locke may in his ancestry have a family connection to let's say a Stanley from the 1860s and that is the DNA that is now joining me and this Locke male in these times with the four other people in the cluster who all share Indian ethnicity, somehow i have lots of Stanley's and such names from America who share DNA with me i do wonder though why is this, then i think the Gipsy peoples were in the British lands for hundreds of years so the DNA Criss crossed between them, i see through the cluster sequence on my Ancestry page how they interlink the clusters, also one person in one cluster with more old family ties then jumps into another cluster and so on until they all link up into one big cluster, you do get some who only have one person sharing with them, maybe they are at the end of their family's in a timescale, you also see how some people share DNA with you and over a hundred others, maybe they have come from and are  linked to many of the old Romany's of the past times i do not really know and i am just trying in my own way to understand there could be several types of combinations, i do know as a fact in my own clusters that the clusters only link to each other, in my Maternal line of DNA you will see other Cousin Clusters far smaller than the Gipsy clusters yet they never Criss cross each other, i have tried to be as open and honest in everything i have wrote to you in the knowledge i have been reading, try not to get disappointed in your long years of researching, remember to when you are gone to this world others reading your words will expand on your writings and find more truths, maybe you will never find all you seek and it is destined for another who comes after you to find and help in your research, i think this is just the way of it in the land of the researcher.

  i will look at my other matches who share DNA with me who also have the Locke's in their family tree, i will look for secrets and things and get back to you, one at a time i will do over the weeks ahead, or months but just keep looking in now and then, you don't need to keep writing to me, but you must say if anything is of interest and whether you would like me to write to anyone on your behalf, like i say they may not answer, but i least we tried

good luck Don.


Travelling People / Re: Gipsy Dan Boswell
« on: Thursday 10 November 22 21:06 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Don
           I also thought that Richard could be a Boswell by birth or is Ancestors were, so i looked for a Richard, there was a Richard in the Taylor family married into the Locks from one of my DNA matches trees but that was later down the line, i think he had a nick name to, like longsnout, but keep in mind all Richards evan in later years for this may turn out to be a good clue, i am at present looking at all my DNA matches that have Locke's Locks in their tree, i have only found one male Lock who shares fragments of old DNA with me, but the trouble is he doesn't give much away but the person who managers his DNA page seems to come from America,  the Locke male DNA match to me in the cousin sequence as the name  B.. Locke, i have several people connected to me through DNA with the Locke's in their trees, i am looking for Locke's from the 1600s that could be an older relative to Richard, i thought the record that was found in the Locke family Bible may have had Richards older relatives name on it, and that could be the reason you have not found it, you may be searching for the wrong Locke, as in first name, or even last name, it may also say that the record comes down from the female line with a maiden name contained within, keep in mind also how the Woman of the past were treated, even in the 1900s England they had to fight hard just to have their name on a ballot paper, i have found about three Locke's so far from connected trees to me through the Cousin sequence that Ancestry send me that are from the 1600s, i only share tiny fragments of ancient DNA with my matches but we do share and connect somehow, the Locke's in my matches trees end up in today's names that are Davies and Smith and such from round the Gloucester way, i will show you more later, no doubt you already have what i may find, plus some of my DNA matches end up in married out names that no one knows of in this day and no doubt to some of them have totally lost touch or did not even know about the Gipsy's in their past, yet when i look into their trees i see very old Romany's way back in time, i will show you what i have found later.


Travelling People / Re: Gipsy Dan Boswell
« on: Sunday 06 November 22 18:09 GMT (UK)  »
 good luck Don, look after yourself, believe it or not you have done a fantastic job, you are a credit to your Locke's, in a hundred years' time they will be speaking of you, well done Don you are a amazing fellow


Travelling People / Re: Gipsy Dan Boswell
« on: Sunday 06 November 22 17:41 GMT (UK)  »
 also, Don I am related to the Jackson Boswells through the cousin sequence, maybe a few times to, also do you know of the Lees from Wales, some went to Ireland, Paulines lot and William, plus i am related to the Blackpool Lot, the Bunces, they now are in Australia, they match to me they are from Alma Boswells lot, wow i know it seems unreal but it's true. i have several Boswells DNA matches from Wales to the north all across the sea to America, how and why is a mystery far greater than i can think, i have several DNA matches to the Gloucestershire region with names like Stevens Stevensons Davis and names like that they have lots of the Locks going back in their linage i will check and see if one of them have a lock going back to the 1600s, i am only a scrag end to, all the DNA matches comes through my Mother, you have all that straight down the male line Y DNA with H in it, everyone i guess would want that in some form to identify with the old Romany, i truthfully never give  such things a thought, in fact i still find it hard to believe how Ancestry say most of my Ethnicity in England is from the south east and then the south i never ever thought i would connect to all those English Gipsy descendants from these regions, how can this be, how do i connect to the south when i am from the midlands, i like reading into all my match's trees, some of them have Gipsy family's on both sides to, for generations going back hundreds of years, if i have all the connections that i do just imagine how many they must have, the European Gipsy's have far more DNA that connects them to India through ethnicity you can see all the country's that their ancestors stayed in, you learn so much history by researching your DNA match's history, there must of been several old time Romany's that must Criss cross my Mothers old family at times to connect me to all those European Gipsy's not one of them have British DNA yet ancestry say they connect to me nearly 50 of them to, most of them have about 30 to 40% Indian Ethnicity they do not mention if they have the H DNA in them i bet it's about the same 30 to 40 % you can see how they lived the old Romany's in several countries over hundreds of years they must of been breeding in with all the peoples they met along the way, and now Ancestry is finding other regions in India not just the north of those lands, places like the Bengal and the south lands of India are showing up in many Gipsy descendants DNA, you never know the first people who went onto be Romany may have first came from the Bengal region, only time will reveal that which is still unknown, their first way of speaking may have been different to the Sanskrit their first language may have just been absorbed into those that came from the north of India, their still could be clues in the old words of the Romany's, some of the old words may come from regions not of the north of India just like the DNA that Ancestry is now finding, it may predate what people think as the beginning, it really is interesting to learn of such things.

Travelling People / Re: Gipsy Dan Boswell
« on: Sunday 06 November 22 16:56 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Don
  Thank you for your kind letter, i am through DNA related to the American Coopers Wharton's  Baileys Harrisons Smalls Boswells Palmer's Jewell's Joules Jeffery's Young's Wells Stanley's Pearce's and more in respect, several times to in adjoining names over several generations, in England the names though DNA are Scamp Boss Mathews Burtons Buckley's Buckland then Lee from Wales and England plus the Jones Gardiners Allen's Beanies Ayers Booths Sheriffs Boyling's Boiling's Hodgkin's Loveridge Charlotts Winters Nelsons Knights Wilshers and Holmes,  plus many more in respect, then from Europe i have now Nearly 50 east European Romany who are descendant from my ancestors, not one of them have a drop of British DNA yet through DNA they are my cousins in DNA, i have of now over one thousand Gipsy connections through the cousin sequence that ancestry say is true, i have a massive connection to America, that means that my DNA predates the late 1800s, there is much more i could say but i want you to know that you have done good, what will they think of me and you in thirty years' time when we are both gone, they will say we are different people from different continents from different family's yet through DNA we connected in our different ways of researching

Don the Smiths are a great family that i suppose you never have known in America i am also related through DNA to them plus Herons from the north east and the Hearns Herons from Wales and the Grays plus the Lovell's who i seem to be connected to many times like the Dark Lees married to the Mochins connected to the Herons who i match to, also through DNA, you can see how DNA connects to the old family trees that the old scholars wrote, 

Travelling People / Re: Staffordshire Travellers
« on: Sunday 30 January 22 08:29 GMT (UK)  »
I knew William Nield was Billy Button, but had no idea how common the nickname was - fascinating stuff - thank you.

I guess the only question now is - which William Nield was Billy Button? Was it Clement William Nield (b. Uttoxeter 1853), or was it William Clement Nield (b. Uttoxeter 1854)?! These two, who both went by the name William and only sometimes using the name Clement, have been easily mixed up by researchers (including myself, leading to me going down the wrong road a fair bit early on).

Clement William (1853) was the son of Charles Nield and Mary Ann Grundy, and Mary, in turn, was the daughter of Clement Grundy and his second wife, Mary Fenton. Clement's first wife was Ann Smith, and she was the mother of John Grundy - married to Maria Hodgkins for less than a day.

Maria Hodgkins remarried to Thomas Nield and was the mother of William Clement Nield (1854), later adopted by Josiah Hodgkins and Ann Smallwood. Why he should use the name Clement I'm not sure. It is this second William I believe to be Billy Button, as he was said to be 26 years old in 1881. He married Rosanna Wright in 1885.

Clement William married Hannah Mitchell in 1880, so probably wasn't in a gang of lads attacking Irish men for tobacco in 1881 (not impossible, of course, it's just a gang is more the environment for a bachelor ...)

A point of interest - when Charles Nield married Mary Ann Grundy in Uttoxeter in 1845, one of the witnesses was Obadiah Mayer, the grandson of the elder Obadiah, and the son of William Mayer and Ann Johnson. I believe William Mayer may have remarried to an Ann Nield.

To stir further - when Obadiah married Catherine Fennity in 1852, one of the witnesses was 'Caroline Blewer', and this is very likely to be Caroline Hodgkinson, daughter of William Hodgkinson and Elizabeth Mear (read Mayer), and who married a John Bloor (read Blewer) in 1850.

There is a another Clement who is stated as being related, he is one of the Crutchleys who are themselves interwoven with all names that are linked within all the stories told down through the years and the lifes of these peoples from in and around Uttoxeter, the name Clement could be a clue that links several families.

Derby Daily Telegraph - 03 December 1891

Petty Sessions, Wednesday.—Before Captain Dawson.  Charge  of Cutting and Wounding.—Clement Crutchley, labourer, of Uttoxeter. Appeared in custody  charged with having caused bodily injury to his brother-in law, John Neild, Saturday evening last. —The police stated that on hearing of a disturbance at Crutchley's house, they went and found Neild lying in a semi- conscious state, covered with blood, and with cuts upon his face which had been stitched by a doctor. Upon the floor there were broken crockery and an open pocket-knife.—John Nield himself said he went into his sister's house and saw her husband (Crutchley) fighting. He took her part, and struck prisoner, but was himself knocked down, and, falling upon the sharp corner of a sofa, he cut his face and caused the injury.—Mr. Wilkins. appeared for Crutchley, and submitted that there was really no case for him answer.-—The police, however, said they had expected two witnesses who saw the affair, but they had not appeared.—The case was adjourned until next Court day for the witnesses to attend. 
 Burton Chronicle - 17 December 1891
 The charge against Clement Crutchley for  the alleged wounding of his brother-in-law, was withdrawn…………   

Thank you MeirSoul for finding and putting on here the story of Clara Neild, a great story of a great Lady

Travelling People / Re: Staffordshire Travellers
« on: Friday 07 January 22 20:49 GMT (UK)  »
posted by MeirSoul

"Surely these Hodgkin's/ Hodgkinson/ Hodgkin's families must be one and the same . The names repeatedly appear in the local area marrying into the same families over and over again . The Hodgkinsons and Neilds seem to of intermarried on more than one occasion.  John Neild and Sarah Hodgkinson and Marie Hodgkin's (grundy) (who I think was Sarah's sister)  also married a Neild".
posted by Garen

"I hurt my brain attempting to actually connect up these families - it may not be possible to find exactly how they are all connected - and, as I'm sure you know, it's dangerous to make assumptions. Sometimes an 'Eliza Hodgkin's' may seem to be attached to one family, and then some obscure source will reveal she's actually connected to another - and often there is no source to help us find our way, so we just have to leave a question-mark for now.

The 'origin', or connecting person, will certainly never be found, but any Hodgkin's/Hodgkinson/Hodgkin's/etc 'of Cheslyn Hay' or 'of Wyrley Bank' seems to be one of the main identifiers - some dating back into the 1730s and 40s described as travellers. One early family is Arthur Hodgkin's and Sarah ('travelling people', 'vagrants'), but there are others who could be siblings or cousins, so there are further generations in the fog, with records sparse or nonexistent.

I agree that Sarah Hodgkinson who married John Nield and Maria Hodgkinson who married Thomas Nield - John's brother - are sisters. I believe their parents are William Hodgkinson and Elizabeth Mear. William and Elizabeth were married in Lichfield and probably had two children there, in Greenhill, before moving to Uttoxeter. John Nield later married Sarah Hust, which can confuse his two Sarah's for some.

John and Sarah Nield had a son William who died in 1854. The informant on his death is Sarah Mitchell, née Sarah Grundy, next-door neighbour to William & Elizabeth Hodgkinson and older sister of the John Grundy who married Maria Hodgkin's, and she then Thomas Nield.

I think there's enough circumstantial evidence to say that William Hodgkinson was the son of William Hodgkinson and Eleanor Young (m.1785). While William married Elizabeth Mear, another son, Edward, married Sarah Mayer - I think a sister of Elizabeth, and daughters of Obadiah Mayer and Sarah Blewer.

Obadiah had children who married into the Gypsy Florence family, the Bloods, and probably the Nields too. A grandson, Thomas Mayer, married Rhoda Johnson, daughter of Thomas Johnson and Jane Hodgkinson - and this Hodgkinson line leads us back to Thomas and Joan, parents of a number of travelling Hodgkin's who married Sherriffs, Claytons and Hollands, and whose probable sibling, Edward, takes us to the Warwickshire Hodgkin's families (Tracey Emin a famous descendant). DNA links confirm the connection.

A daughter of Edward Hodgkinson and Sarah Mayer, Eleanor, married another Johnson sibling, Joseph, and one of their children married into the Hollands. I also think Edward and Sarah Hodgkinson are the Edward and Sarah who are the witnesses of the marriage of William Sherriff and Tresi Boswell, daughter of Anselo, in 1832 in Rugeley, the same year Eleanor was born in the that town.

So much of the enjoyment of researching these families is the thousands of connections that keep coming up, but it's like an endless piece of string full of knots - sometimes you manage to undo them and find you've suddenly two or three pieces instead of one!"

 Garen, thank you for taking the time to write up and explain the information that you have researched, it clears clouds from the sky, you must of spent many years researching, all your relatives of the future years will expand on your research and know that they stand on the shoulder of giants like yourself and the good people who have helped you along the way .. well done Garen.

I found these two articles below, contained in them are the life and times of these peoples, maybe its one of the reasons researchers find that "endless piece of string full of knots - sometimes you manage to undo them and find you've suddenly two or three pieces instead of one".
If you read into these two articles you will see how they do not follow the norm, as in what would be easy to find through records as in if they did follow the norm.

Uttoxeter Advertiser and Ashbourne Times - 23 August 1911
Harriet Brassington of Smithfield road Uttoxeter, applied for an affiliation order against James Bloor (18), Smithfield-road, Uttoxeter, in respect of her illegitimate child, born on February 29 last.
Defendant admitted responsibility, and an order of 2s. a week was made………….

Wellington Journal - 16 July 1898
TENBURY. A Serious Charge.—At the Police Court Monday, Richard Hodgkin's, aged 51. a tramping scissors grinder, was charged with unlawfully and maliciously wounding Sarah Hudson, a woman with whom he cohabits. with, it appeared from the evidence of witnesses that the two were proceeding from the Old Wood Saturday afternoon, when, in course of an altercation. prisoner struck the woman at the back of the head with a frying pan. causing a severe wound, from which she bled a great deal When charged by the police, prisoner said he was in a temper when he did it. The woman was removed to the Workhouse Infirmary, and Dr. Boss stated that she was very weak from the loss of blood…………………..   

Travelling People / Re: Staffordshire Travellers
« on: Friday 07 January 22 20:21 GMT (UK)  »
Staffordshire Sentinel and Commercial & General Advertiser - 03 May 1879
—W. Nield, alias Billy Button, a notorious character, was charged by Herbert Preston, landlord the White Lion Inn, Uttoxeter, with refusing quit……………….   

Derby Mercury - 08 May 1878
STEAING A BUN.-William Nield, alias Billy Button, was charged with stealing a bun from the shop of a confectioner, at Uttoxeter. It appeared from the evidence that complainant, on hearing someone in the shop, found the defendant, who is a notorious character, putting a bun in his pocket. she made him replace the bun, and he then abused her in a shameful manner, and her son had to fight the defendant before he would go away……………….   
Staffordshire Sentinel and Commercial & General Advertiser - 22 April 1876
UTTOXETER.  A Warning  to Street Brawlers William Nield, alias Billy Button, was charged by Inspector Fetiner with having been drunk and disorderly at Uttoxeter, On the first occasion he was drunk, and fighting with a man in the Market-place, and when C. Berber attempted to arrest him, be attacked him furiously, and tore his beard. He was so violent that he had to be carried to the station. On the second occasion, he was drunk and disorderly in the High street, and was arrested by P.C. Winn ……………..   

      so you can see there are lots of "billy buttons" down through the years, including the famous William Nield, but i wonder what is the origin of the fictional billy button. 

Travelling People / Re: Staffordshire Travellers
« on: Friday 07 January 22 20:21 GMT (UK)  »
  so now we come to Uttoxeter and find William Nield.. alias "Billy Button"

Burton Chronicle -  21 August 1884
AN OLD OFFENDER. William Nield, alias Billy button, an old offender, was charged with being drunk and riotous, at Bromehall, on the 3rd inst. Defendant, who denied the charge...   

Derbyshire Advertiser and Journal - 11 April 1884

—William Nield, alias Billy  Button. was charged with using profane language at the Temperance Hall, Uttoxeter, a place of worship by the Salvation army, on the Ist ult.—lt seems defendant, who did not appear, was the ringleader of a band of roughs who attend the Salvation meetings for the purpose of annoying them; and on the evening in question defendant went into the hall and commenced using very bad language, and created some disturbance in that the meeting had to be closed before time.....

Burton Chronicle -  17 May 1883

 ASSULTING THE Police. William Neild, alias "Billy Button." labourer, of Uttoxeter, was charged with being drunk and with 'assaulting Mrs. Wigley and constable Campbell, at the police station. Defendant went into the Albion inn………..       

 Burton Chronicle - 29 June 1882
Refusing To Quit. William Nield, of Uttoxeter, alias "Billy Button," was charged with refusing to quit the licensed premises of the Wellington Inn, Uttoxeter……..     

 Staffordshire Sentinel -  09 September 1881
 Uttoxeter.   A Violent Character—William Neild, alias Button, Uttoxeter, was summoned by Michael Eagan, an Irish labourer, for assaulting him on the 28th ult. Complainant said that he and another Irishman (both old men) were walking along the road when they met defendant and some of his companions, Neild asked for some tobacco, but he said he had none. Neild then struck him and knocked him down, and abused him in a shameful manner. His friend then came to his assistance, but Neild served him the same, and worse; kicking them and brutally and ill-treating them. Defendant did not appear, but as there was a long list of convictions against him, he was committed to three months hard labour —The same defendant was also summoned by William Rudd for assaulting him in the Smithfield on the 31st ult  complainant said he had bought some sheep, and was removing them into another pen, when Neild came up and used very bad language, and said he must not move the sheep.  Complainant told him he had bought them and paid for them, and he shoud put them where he liked, but Neild knocked him down and otherwise abused him…………….   

 Staffordshire Sentinel and Commercial & General Advertiser - 19 June 1880
UTTOXETER. Wednesday. (Before Captain Dawson, C. W. Lyon, and C. T. Cavandish, Esqrs.) Assault Case. William Nield, alias Billy Button, was charged on remand with assaulting James Ward, at Abbots Bromley, on the 17th May. It was shown that on the day named the annual Oddfellow's fete and gala was held in a field at Dunstall, and that defendant was one of a band of men who had gone there with the intention of doing as much mischief as they could, and by whom many of the people present were much abused and beaten with stick's.     

Derby Mercury - 23 June 1880
PETTY SESSIONS, Wednesday.   
THE RIOTING AT BROMLEY FETE.-.Williams Nield, hawker,' alias Billy Button, of Uttoxeter, hawker, was brought up on a warrant charged with having been concerned With a number of other roughs in creating a disgraceful row at the  Bromley Odd Fellows' fete on the 17th of May, and with assaulting James Ward at the same times and place. It appeared that defendant took hold of ward by the collor and he had to be forsably pulled away by two men., the Magistrates said it was a disgraceful affair, and the defendant  would be committed to prison for two months' hard  labour without the option of a fine.  REFUSING TO QUIT.-Thomas Blore, of Uttoxteter, labourer, was charged at the instance of Thomas Brown, with having refused to quit a tent on the fete ground at Abbot's Bromley when requested to do so by himself and the Landlord, Mr. Tomlinson......


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