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Messages - Chatwood2016

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Crikey, that's extraordinary!


Grrrr I don't think I'm barking up the right tree.  The three boys were in an Orphanage in 1911, however their mother was alive and living with her three daughters.  They seem to be living a fairly affluent life.  Maybe the boys were in school at the Orohanage.  My candidate for being Agnes CLEE, Agnes Mary MARKESKY is living with her mother in 1911 and her unmarried sisters, and is a student teacher,  they are altogether on the 1939 Register and Cecil one of the brothers is also unmarried and living with them.  They died unmarried and also left a fair amount of money.  This doesn't sound at all like the family I'm researching,  however AGNES Senior nee McDonough does come from Irish parentage. What a muddle.


No I don't think they were Jewish, but I don't really know, have only just spotted them.  The three younger brothers were in an Orphanage in 1901.  I spotted Leonard MARKESKY has some WW1 documentation - I'll go and have a look to see if there is enough available to record his religion.  I just wondered if it was as easier surname for people to pronounce, or maybe there was anti-German feelings in 1911 and any foreign second name would be suspicious.  What ever the reason it's been an uphill struggle to research.  Very sad family, losing both parents, options for a young orphaned teenager rather limited, 'marriage' and children seemed a good way out I suppose.   Well that's my take on it!


Thanks so much Claire!


Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing / Re: *SUCCESS* Autosomal DNA Test - my experience
« on: Saturday 30 April 16 12:25 BST (UK)  »

Sorry to be a bit off piste here.  I have just joined and notice you have what appears as the same second name interests.  I am researching on behalf of my son's girlfriend the BRUCE/MOTTRAM family  (NORA EILEEN MOTTRAM was her great grandmother) this has not been an easy task as the family are in NZ and know nothing of NORA EILEEN MOTTRAM born 20 JULY 1906 to parents ARTHUR LEONARD MOTTRAM AND AGNES CLEE.  This morning after struggling for a week researching every AGNES born around 1889 in WOLVERHAMPTON, I discovered AGNES MARKESKY (MARKOWSKY).  I have quite a bit of information recorded on my initial post (posted about 1 hour ago).  Needless to say, NORA has been really hard to research.  The only thing I knew was she was the wife of Patrick Bruce in Belfast married in 1922, father Arthur.  I have had no trouble researching the MOTTRAM Line once I discovered her father was ARTHUR LEONARD MOTTRAM. The latter part of her life her second name was MOORE, no family member knows why.  She didn't take on her second partner's name of RUSSELL (WILLIAM RAMSEY RUSSELL).  They lived in Leicester and she died in 1993 in Leicester.  Through Ancestry I saw that her brother HAROLD born 1910 married a girl from Tipperary and eventually settled in IPSWICH.  I can find no trace of her sister IVY born 1908.  Arthur Leonard MOTTRAM married Sylvia Dillon in 1923 in Lancashire and had two daughters.  He was badly injured in WW1 and committed suicide in 1956.  A contact on Ancestry said he would often talk of his 'lovely golden haired Doris'.  Another child?  I would love to chat with you on line if you are able and share the information I have.  Best wishes,


Yes this is the family, I'm rather excited about the plumbing reference - a link with the Mottrams maybe?  Also I know there is someone on this list who has the same second name interests, ND I don't know how to contact them!  Any tips?


Yes Claire, this is the family, I'm really hoping that someone can verify that AGNES CLEE and AND AGNES MARKESKY (MARKOWSY) are the same person.  This has kept me busy for over a week, trawling through every Agnes born around the 1890s in the Wolverhampton district.  It's a rather dysfunctional family and every twist and turn there are conflicting second names, false leads and conflicting birth dates.  Driving me nuts

Yeiks sorry, in my excitement I didn't proof read properly. Will attempt to correct it, though have only just joined and not sure of the protocol!  FYI Agnes was born 1889  - I transposed the figures, thanks so much for pointing it out!  Feel a real dunce!

Moderator comment. Date now amended in title on all replies to show 1889

Hello am desperately seeking any information on the above individual AGNES MARKESKY (MARKOWSKY) who I believe used the second name of CLEE on her children's birth certificates. 

She is living as wife (though I believe not married) with ARTHUR LEONARD MOTTRAM in Blackpool and environs on the 1911 Census.  She had three children with Arthur that I know of, NORA EILEEN born 1906, IVY born 1908, HAROLD born 1910. 

This seems a very complicated and fractured family who I am researching on behalf of my son's girlfriend.

NORA EILEEN is her great grandmother.  She married PATRICK BRUCE in Belfast in 1922 and had two sons. 

She left Patrick, and formed a relationship with WILLIAM RAMSEY RUSSELL with whom she had two daughters.  The family know very little of her life.  She never married WILLIAM RAMSEY.  PATRICK BRUCE died in 1949. 

For some reason NORA adopts the second name of MOORE.  She is recorded under this name on the 1939 Register, the right birth date of July 20, but the wrong year.  She, her four children and WILLIAM RUSSELL settle in LEICESTER.  She died in 1993, (again correct birth date wrong year).

Through Ancestry I have discovered that her brother HAROLD married a girl from Tipperary and settled in IPSWICH. 

I have no idea when the estrangement happened between Agnes and Arthur Leonard MOTTRAM.  But he marries SYLVIA DILLON in Lancashire 1923 and has two daughters.  He was badly injured in WW1 and committed suicide in 1956. 

I cannot trace IVY.  NORA was taken out of school in LYTHAM in 1912, given reason 'leaving the area'.  Perhaps the family moved to Ireland? 

Arthur's family came from a long line of Plumbers and Plumbing Wholesalers, ALEXANDER, Agnes's father was a plumber - is this how they possibly met? 

Any information would be so wonderful, and I would be only too happy to share the information I have.



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